[Az-Geocaching] Re: Who Manages What an IDEA

[Koch, Dan]

Sounds like a good idea.  If you can't take the mountain to...

But the real question is will there be Mr Pibb or Orange Crush available? :)

LazyK - Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: Regan L Smith [mailto:buggers@mindspring.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:10 PM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Re: Who Manages What an IDEA


let's not forget what else I was told " This park is not here for your
little game" this of all statements have me pissed and I am going to report
this Officer and I just forgot his name.....

here is a thought and Steve if you would also give it a thought

Lets have an EVENT CACHE AT USERY PARK, since it is near Bulldog and the
Tonto maybe a Ranger can come and talk... I will contact Usery while
reporting the officer with a personal agenda but will also find out what it
will take to reserve a Ramada and fire up the grill, I am thinking of
sponsoring it hot dogs/ hamburger buns , should get some soda from work and
then let everyone bring the fixings and extras this would also be a good
time to bring newbie's because with officials there we could hear first hand
the rules...... and maybe wishful thinking an ammo can for a cache to be
hidden......

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RopingThe Wind" <arizcowboy@hotmail.com>
To: <listserv@azgeocaching.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 8:22 PM
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What


>
>
> >From: "Team Tierra Buena" <TeamTierraBuena@earthlink.net>
> >Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
> >To: <listserv@azgeocaching.com>
> >Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What
> >Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:45:11 -0700
> >
> >Regan,
> >
> >I'm glad I read your log before I replied. Maricopa County Parks are 
> >not "national forest", as you wrote below (you had me going there for 
> >a
couple
> >of minutes!).
> >
> >I think what it comes down to is that it is illegal to enter a 
> >Maricopa County Park for ANY reason without paying the "user fee". 
> >But the MCP representative at the land management meeting last month 
> >did say that
they
> >were planning to revise their policy to make it much more restrictive 
> >on the placement of geocaches than it has been. That saddened me, 
> >because I thought
> >MCP's "two mile rule" was a great compromise.
> >
> >Coincidentally, I got a private email today from someone who wrote me
that
> >our "Grandma Sarah's Cache", which is in the McDowell Mountain 
> >Regional Park (part of MCP), may be missing and that a ranger there 
> >told him "it better not be there". But as of this morning, when I was 
> >checking it for
something
> >else, their "old" policy is still on the web site 
> >(http://www.maricopa.gov/parks/news/). What worries me now is that 
> >they
may
> >have issued a new policy to the park staff, but haven't yet bothered 
> >to make it available to the general public. I hope my fear is 
> >unfounded.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >Team Tierra Buena
>
>
> Steve,
>
> Regan's log is rather incomplete. I would like to tell the whole 
> story. I was with Regan today. We went out for two caches. I had 
> already found
ARRGG
> cache a long time ago. But, Regan had not. We were then going to go do 
> K9 Conclusion Cache, which I had not yet attempted. Now, with Regan 
> driving
and
> I in the passenger seat, we pulled up and parked on the side of 
> Usuarry
Pass
> Rd, just about due east of the AARRGG Cache. There are no 'no parking'
signs
> along this stretch of the road. Also, there were no 'park boundary' 
> signs that we saw in the vicinity of the hill that AARRGG Cache is on. 
> There was
a
> fence line south of the AARRGG Cache that did have a 'park boundary' 
> sign posted on it. This fence ended it's north run along the side of 
> the
roadway
> and then turned toward the west. We never crossed a fence or 'park
boundary'
> sign on our way from the roadway (were we parked) to the cache. We 
> arrive
at
> the cache and I look back to see a park ranger at Regan's car. After
logging
> his find, we head back to the car. The park ranger greeted us and 
> asked
for
> ID and all that good stuff. He then told us we were tresspassing. He 
> said this was private property. I explained that the park boundary 
> fence line terminates just south of here and then turns west. At no 
> time, did we
cross
> a fence to get to the cache nor pass a sign stating this was private 
> property or a park boundary. We then explained to the ranger what we 
> were doing back there and that we were geocaching and showed him the 
> printout
of
> the cache page. OH WAIT! We just said GEOCACHE... When we said we were 
> geocaching the park ranger said "oh dont tell me you were geocaching 
> or I will arrest you right now". Those were his very words. So, Regan 
> said.. oh we were just hiking :) At any rate, after a few minutes of 
> getting the 5th degree, the officer was 'kind' enough to let us off 
> the hook. But, we did spend several minutes talking about geocaching. 
> The park ranger said "geocaching is illegal on Maricopa County Park 
> lands". I told him that I recall reading of the regulations outlining 
> geocaching on Maricopa County Parks web site concerning where 
> geocaches can be placed. He said there
were
> no laws or guidelines written for geocaching in the county parks and 
> that
it
> is illegal to cache on county parks land. Now we all know this is not
true,
> since it is outlined on the County Parks web site.
>
> At any rate... we were apparently on County Park land and we were 
> indeed trespassing. But, since it was decided we werent geocaching, he 
> let us go. :/  I again explained that I would have never gone to the 
> cache if I knew
I
> was doing so unlawfully.
>
> Later in our conversations, the park ranger said that we could 
> basically
do
> anything out there as long as we had a permit (do I hear a 
> contradiction here???). A permit costs like $4 or $5 bucks to enter 
> the park. That's all fine, but I had no idea we were in the park or we 
> would have purchased a permit! Later yet in our conversations with the 
> ranger, he also told us it was illegal to geocache on National Forest 
> land.
>
> WELL, DAMN.. I REALLY AM CONFUSED NOW!!!!!!!!!!
>
> The park ranger (police officer) also said that he could arrest us for 
> geocaching and tresspassing and also seize our home computers and 
> house
and
> everything else. We listened to him, spoke our peace and we were then 
> on o
ur
> way. We did have conversation for several minutes and the whole
conversation
> was low toned and we were respectful of the park rangers position. 
> After shaking hands, we were on our way.
>
> I don't know what to make of this whole thing.....
>
> Maricopa County Parks says it is ok to geocache as long as we follow
certain
> guidelines, guidelines which are outlined on their website. This park
ranger
> says we can't. Which is it?!?! What about National Forest land? I have
gone
> 28 years of my life without any kind of negative run in's with the law
until
> I got into geocaching. Since I began geocaching, I have been 
> approached numerous times by city police, park rangers, and even a 
> police detective about what I was doing and sometimes the legality of 
> what I was doing
would
> be questioned. Of course, most all of these encounters where while 
> doing urban caches. On this speciic above mentioned cache, we were 
> seeking out
an
> ammo can in a wilderness type setting (county park as it were). I 
> never, ever thought I would deal with these kinds of issues while 
> geocaching in
the
> wilderness. I never have been a fan of urban caching. I always enjoyed
doing
> the wilderness type caches. Now, I cant do that without being 
> questioned
by
> authorities. I am not sure I like this game much anymore. Like most
anything
> we do in life, it becomes less and less fun as it becomes more 
> restrictive through government regulation. Is this the goal of our 
> government? To control the people until we have no freedom to do the 
> things we enjoy?!
Some
> things in life, we must deal with this government regulations as it 
> may concern something we do for a living. However, geocaching is not 
> how I
make
> my living, it is merely a hobby. I simply don't care to deal with 
> these kinds of issues anymore and I at this time am contemplating 
> standing aside to guage where this hobby/sport of geocaching is going. 
> I don't want to
play
> this game anymore unless I can have an actual paper copy of every land 
> agency's regulations concerning geocaching. This way, I know exactly 
> where my boundaries are and I can be 100% sure I am doing so lawfully.
>
> I deal with landowner issues in another hobby of mine. That hobby is 
> also how I make my living. I am constantly dealing with city ordinance 
> issues
and
> the like. It is regulated on a local, state and federal level. I have 
> had meetings with many different east valley municipalities' 
> concerning regulations and ordinances. I have even met with the 
> chief's of police in
a
> couple of these cities. I just have no desire to deal with these 
> issues in any other areas. I have 800 cache finds in less than two 
> years and
obviously
> enjoy the hobby very much. But, I don't like feeling like a criminal 
> everytime I go seeking out a cache... even in a wilderness 
> environment. It just isn't fun.
>
> Scott
> Team Ropingthewind
>
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