[Az-Geocaching] Very disturbing......

Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:59:37 -0700

Hi Scott,

It's a shame that Team Cache Ya Later would seek to "get revenge" on you by
deleting your legitimate finds on their other caches. I remember seeing your
post on the cache logs, and I didn't think it was inappropriate in any way.
I'm surprised that this person took offense to it, especially in light of
the recent controversies. It's much better for our group to err on the side
of caution.

Please repost your finds on the other two caches, and let us know what
happens. I will have no problem with abstaining from all Team Cache Ya
Later's caches if they delete your logs.

-FroBro Q-Tip

-----Original Message-----
From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com]On Behalf Of Scott
Nicol
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 6:22 PM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Very disturbing......

Howdy fellow AZ Geocachers,

As most of you already know me, I have been caching since January 6th of
2002 and I have found 383 cache finds now. I beleive that is alot of caching
in a very short amount of time! So, as you can tell (and those that know me
already know!) I am a very avid cacher and enjoy the hobby very much.

However, a recent event has me somewhat upset and wondering if all this
'work' that I enjoy doing so much to claim a cache find is really worth it.

I had two cache find logs removed by the cache owner. These two caches are
'Urban Forest' and 'Horse Feathers'. GC999F and GC941A respectively.
These caches were hidden and owned by Team Cache Ya Later.

Here is what appears to have started it all: I posted an archive note log on
Cache Ya Later's cache GC9DO4. I posted this because it was obviously on
private property and I wasnt about to violate landowner wishes or state law
to go and claim a cache find. The cache is apparently not available anymore
on geocaching.com so you will need to type the GC number in to search for
it. A day after my post, the cache owner responded by saying that he did NOT
have permission for the placement of that cache but felt it was ok. The
funny part about all this is, the person who hid the cache is a member of
the HOA of the neighborhood near by. Knowing this, it would have been very
simple to ASK for permission first. Anyways, I logged onto Geocaching.com
today and found that my total was only 381 cache finds (on geocaching.com
not azgeocaching.com). I also noticed my archive note was removed. So, I
pretty much knew what to expect from there. Since I have all my caches found
backed up on disk as well as on my personal geocaching web site, it was easy
to quickly find out which two caches my find logs were removed from. Sure
enough, two of Cache Ya Later's caches.

I do not feel my archive note was any out of line. I even had a couple other
well known and high find cachers read it and asked their opinions. They both
said they agreed with my thinking and the archive note should remain. My
thinking as well. So, I left it. Turns out about two days ago, Jeremy Irish
posted an archive note and had the cache officially archived. Jeremy's note
stated that the cache hider please ask permission and once permission was
had, that he would unarchive the cache.

As far as my archive note log went... I suppose I could have emailed the
cache owner privately about the situation and my thinking on their cache.
However, I didnt want other cachers to go to potentially drive clear across
the valley to attempt to find that cache and not be able to because their
were no tresspassing signs everywhere and that they would be doing so
against the law. I figured I would save them a trip. I found out the hard
way and drove 50 miles across town to seek out that cache only to be stopped
by no tresspassing signs.

Apparently the cache owner has removed his log as well as mine. My log was
very clear in my thinking and I feel it was professionally written.

For those that havent been to that cache yet, I will try and explain the
area to you. It is an approximately 200x200 foot area on the corner of 83rd
Ave and Beardsley (I beleive). That streets make up the west and south
sides. The other two sides are bounded by walls of backyards of houses.
Therefore, no access could be had from those two sides. There are a total of
5 very prominant NO TRESPASSING signs. 2 on each street side and one on the
corner by the intersection. Very nice and very well made signs. Very obvious
as well. The area inside is a huge waterfall with rock cliffs and such. The
rest is landscaping with trees and grass (the grass was also just planted
and hadnt grown yet). My best guestimate by looking at the GPS, the cache
was somewhere near the waterfall. Not a safe place for children either.  I
know it was well inside the property boundary.

My reason for posting the archive note was simply because it was on private
property. I have no intentions of violating state laws on trespassing on
private property (and the fines and such that can go along with it) for a
cache find. I am a law abiding citizen. Not only that, but I very much
respect other peoples property and their wishes. If they have a no
trespassing sign up, they obviously don't want people on their property. I
felt that since there was nothing in the cache description (there is now, go
figure) that stated it was private property and that permission had been had
and that it was ok to go on the property... I wasnt going in to seek out the
cache.

Now, the cache owner has added something in the description stating it is
indeed private property. But, still doesnt say he has permission to have it
there. Two logs have been removed from the cache web page. My archive note
log that first stated it was private property and the cache owners note log
declaring 'No, I did not have permission to place the cache there'. So, with
that said.. Jeremy archived the cache. It is currently an archived cache.
But, the cache owner added a note in the description saying it is private
property. However, he still hasnt mentioned it is ok to go in there and that
permission has been had.

------------

On the subject of having my two find logs removed from this cache owners
other logs.. what should I do? Would like to hear some suggestions. I am not
trying to be a cache cop. I just dont find it fair to other caches to go to
seek out a cache and only find they are faced with no trespassing signs-
private property once there. It is not fair to me and not fair to others
that go to attempt to find this cache.
If I had known it was private property and no permission was had in the
first place, I would not have bothered to drive 50 miles from my Mesa home
to find that cache. I feel this is on the same lines of say not finding a
cache and not placing a not found log on the cache page for other cachers to
read.

I am a bit disturbed by having two caches that I put alot of effort into
finding removed because of some very immature actions by this cache owner
Cache Ya Later only has about 18 cache finds. The only teams that have found
GC9D04 so far were teams with very few cache finds. They obviously don't
understand the rules and ettiquete of geocaching yet. I have not responded
to the cache owner and will go ahead and log my finds on these two other
caches again. Hopefully, they will not get removed.

What disturbed me the most is the fact that this can happen. I have found
dozens of caches by any one cache team and having all of them removed
certainly isnt an entertaining thought. I wish there was a way to be able to
not remove a log and that once it is placed, it could only be edited by the
cache finder.

Would like to know others thoughts on this and where I should proceed from
here. It costs alot of money in gas as well as my time to go find these
caches and I am very upset that they were removed. I don't plan to stop
geocaching from this one incident, but, it is very upsetting to know that
this can happen and that thought alone can make one wonder if they should
continue.

Scott
Team Ropingthewind

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