[Az-Geocaching] Very disturbing......

Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:18:32 -0700

Although I would have contacted the team privately through GC email first, I
understand why you did not. After having read your log entry, I sent the
following email to them.

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THIS IS AN AUTOMATED EMAIL MESSAGE FROM GEOCACHING.COM
This is a copy of your email. Please keep it for your records.
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User Cache Ya Later has been emailed with the following message:

I am interested in your cache "Solid As a Rock". Unfortunately my GPS is enroute
back to Garmin
for repairs, so I am not able to verify the location of the cache. From the map
it looks as
though it is near the fountain at the entrance to Fletcher heights. I am also a
resident of the
area and have an interest.

If it is by the fountain, I know that the property management company would
prosecute
trespasssers if the police had the manpower to enforce it. If it is not by the
fountain then I
apologize. I too want to keep the sport clean. I agree that a private email is
more tactful,
however given the recent press, we are a little over emotional.

Please let me know. You can fell free to call me at 623-xxx-xxxx if you would
like.

Mark, Magical Memories.

*************************************
Although they stated that you should have emailed them directly, rather than a
public post, they chose not to answer my email or call me. As a resident and
member of the HOA I believe that the HOA would not give them permission for the
cache.  We have a major problem with vandalism, trash, and water pollution
problems. The fountain is very expensive to maintain, and the HOA is charged for
all the cleaning. I personally think it is not worth the expense, but the
builders did not ask me. Although I think Geocachers would do less damage than
all the picture takers and teenage partiers, I know that the property management
that runs the HOA would not approve.

I would have preferred to work this out with the team that placed the cache, but
since they are unwilling to respond, I appreciate all you have done. I will
admit that we are one of the teams that was criticized, we wrote coordinates
with a marker on a pole for a multi stage. Our hands have already been slapped,
and since we have been notified that the markings are becoming faded, we will
replace them with a label. We all make mistakes, some of us are more willing to
admit them and correct what we can.

As far as your entries, in the grand scheme of things it is not worth the hassle
(until you are one cache away from Wyle E), just consider the source.

Mark and Jane, Magical Memories

Scott Nicol wrote:

> Howdy fellow AZ Geocachers,
>
> As most of you already know me, I have been caching since January 6th of
> 2002 and I have found 383 cache finds now. I beleive that is alot of caching
> in a very short amount of time! So, as you can tell (and those that know me
> already know!) I am a very avid cacher and enjoy the hobby very much.
>
> However, a recent event has me somewhat upset and wondering if all this
> 'work' that I enjoy doing so much to claim a cache find is really worth it.
>
> I had two cache find logs removed by the cache owner. These two caches are
> 'Urban Forest' and 'Horse Feathers'. GC999F and GC941A respectively.
> These caches were hidden and owned by Team Cache Ya Later.
>
> Here is what appears to have started it all: I posted an archive note log on
> Cache Ya Later's cache GC9DO4. I posted this because it was obviously on
> private property and I wasnt about to violate landowner wishes or state law
> to go and claim a cache find. The cache is apparently not available anymore
> on geocaching.com so you will need to type the GC number in to search for
> it. A day after my post, the cache owner responded by saying that he did NOT
> have permission for the placement of that cache but felt it was ok. The
> funny part about all this is, the person who hid the cache is a member of
> the HOA of the neighborhood near by. Knowing this, it would have been very
> simple to ASK for permission first. Anyways, I logged onto Geocaching.com
> today and found that my total was only 381 cache finds (on geocaching.com
> not azgeocaching.com). I also noticed my archive note was removed. So, I
> pretty much knew what to expect from there. Since I have all my caches found
> backed up on disk as well as on my personal geocaching web site, it was easy
> to quickly find out which two caches my find logs were removed from. Sure
> enough, two of Cache Ya Later's caches.
>
> I do not feel my archive note was any out of line. I even had a couple other
> well known and high find cachers read it and asked their opinions. They both
> said they agreed with my thinking and the archive note should remain. My
> thinking as well. So, I left it. Turns out about two days ago, Jeremy Irish
> posted an archive note and had the cache officially archived. Jeremy's note
> stated that the cache hider please ask permission and once permission was
> had, that he would unarchive the cache.
>
> As far as my archive note log went... I suppose I could have emailed the
> cache owner privately about the situation and my thinking on their cache.
> However, I didnt want other cachers to go to potentially drive clear across
> the valley to attempt to find that cache and not be able to because their
> were no tresspassing signs everywhere and that they would be doing so
> against the law. I figured I would save them a trip. I found out the hard
> way and drove 50 miles across town to seek out that cache only to be stopped
> by no tresspassing signs.
>
> Apparently the cache owner has removed his log as well as mine. My log was
> very clear in my thinking and I feel it was professionally written.
>
> For those that havent been to that cache yet, I will try and explain the
> area to you. It is an approximately 200x200 foot area on the corner of 83rd
> Ave and Beardsley (I beleive). That streets make up the west and south
> sides. The other two sides are bounded by walls of backyards of houses.
> Therefore, no access could be had from those two sides. There are a total of
> 5 very prominant NO TRESPASSING signs. 2 on each street side and one on the
> corner by the intersection. Very nice and very well made signs. Very obvious
> as well. The area inside is a huge waterfall with rock cliffs and such. The
> rest is landscaping with trees and grass (the grass was also just planted
> and hadnt grown yet). My best guestimate by looking at the GPS, the cache
> was somewhere near the waterfall. Not a safe place for children either.  I
> know it was well inside the property boundary.
>
> My reason for posting the archive note was simply because it was on private
> property. I have no intentions of violating state laws on trespassing on
> private property (and the fines and such that can go along with it) for a
> cache find. I am a law abiding citizen. Not only that, but I very much
> respect other peoples property and their wishes. If they have a no
> trespassing sign up, they obviously don't want people on their property. I
> felt that since there was nothing in the cache description (there is now, go
> figure) that stated it was private property and that permission had been had
> and that it was ok to go on the property... I wasnt going in to seek out the
> cache.
>
> Now, the cache owner has added something in the description stating it is
> indeed private property. But, still doesnt say he has permission to have it
> there. Two logs have been removed from the cache web page. My archive note
> log that first stated it was private property and the cache owners note log
> declaring 'No, I did not have permission to place the cache there'. So, with
> that said.. Jeremy archived the cache. It is currently an archived cache.
> But, the cache owner added a note in the description saying it is private
> property. However, he still hasnt mentioned it is ok to go in there and that
> permission has been had.
>
> ------------
>
> On the subject of having my two find logs removed from this cache owners
> other logs.. what should I do? Would like to hear some suggestions. I am not
> trying to be a cache cop. I just dont find it fair to other caches to go to
> seek out a cache and only find they are faced with no trespassing signs-
> private property once there. It is not fair to me and not fair to others
> that go to attempt to find this cache.
> If I had known it was private property and no permission was had in the
> first place, I would not have bothered to drive 50 miles from my Mesa home
> to find that cache. I feel this is on the same lines of say not finding a
> cache and not placing a not found log on the cache page for other cachers to
> read.
>
> I am a bit disturbed by having two caches that I put alot of effort into
> finding removed because of some very immature actions by this cache owner.
> Cache Ya Later only has about 18 cache finds. The only teams that have found
> GC9D04 so far were teams with very few cache finds. They obviously don't
> understand the rules and ettiquete of geocaching yet. I have not responded
> to the cache owner and will go ahead and log my finds on these two other
> caches again. Hopefully, they will not get removed.
>
> What disturbed me the most is the fact that this can happen. I have found
> dozens of caches by any one cache team and having all of them removed
> certainly isnt an entertaining thought. I wish there was a way to be able to
> not remove a log and that once it is placed, it could only be edited by the
> cache finder.
>
> Would like to know others thoughts on this and where I should proceed from
> here. It costs alot of money in gas as well as my time to go find these
> caches and I am very upset that they were removed. I don't plan to stop
> geocaching from this one incident, but, it is very upsetting to know that
> this can happen and that thought alone can make one wonder if they should
> continue.
>
> Scott
> Team Ropingthewind
>
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