[Az-Geocaching] State Trust Land in Maricopa County

[Scott Nicol]

>This brings up an interesting question for Scott
>(ropingthewind).  I remember you mentioning that you
>have to have all the appropriate permits for state
>trust land.  What happens if you have to land your hot
>air balloon in one of these motorized-restricted
>areas? Are you allowed to drive the recovery vehicle
>into the area?  Do you have a different permit than
>the one we are all getting?
>
>Bob
>
>
>--- Team Tierra Buena <teamtierrabuena@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
> > I received my renewal application in the mail today.
> > The following page
> > was enclosed with the form and the usual rules and
> > regulations:
> >
> > IMPORTANT NOTICE TO ALL RECREATIONAL PERMIT HOLDERS
> >
> > To date, the following parcels of land within the
> > Maricopa County
> > metropolitan area have been closed to motorized
> > vehicle use by formal
> > order of the State Land Commissioner due to
> > excessive dust and natural
> > resource damage:
> >
> > --snip--

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Howdy Bob and all,

Well, I really dont want to get started on this subject! But since you asked 
me! ...

My understanding is that motorized travel in these restricted areas (yes, 
the areas of land that we permit holders are PAYING money to use) is 
restricted... period. Even if you are a permit holder. (So, do I get a 
partial refund of my permit because a given percentage of land is now off 
limits to me? :) I can still land within it. However, we would have to carry 
all 750lbs worth of balloon equiptment out! (and my balloon is a really 
small balloon! Those big 14 passenger balloons weigh ALOT more!). I have 
landed in fenced off peices of property and had to carry equiptment out 
before. No big deal really. But, not something you want to do on a regular 
basis!

The permit I carry (as all permits are I believe) is specific to the type of 
operation you plan to carry out with it on the STL. My permit covers me for 
launching and landing (recovering) my balloon on STL. This includes allowing 
us to drive our truck on STL to recover the balloon (only on roads of 
course).

Technically speaking... I cannot drive into STL to go look for a geocache. 
My permit covers me for ballooning operations only. (of course, I could 
drive out onto STL to check out a 'potential' new launch or landing site 
which might happen to be right about where a cache is! ;).

There are 3 different types of STL permits available: One for individuals 
and families (I believe that is for yourself and immediate family members 
only), a non-profit group permit (for recreational use for non-profit 
groups, clubs and club events, etc) and a commercial use permit (so the 
state/government can take some more of your hard earned dollars; after all, 
under this type of permit you are using THEIR land for your own monetary 
gain and like every other aspect of the government, they have to get their 
cut of it; THEN, they tax you on whatever little is left that you do actual 
make! AND THEN after a while, they put up a 'pay station' at each gate and 
make you pay a few bucks to enter the STL! :) (dont laugh, the day may 
come!). The individual permit is only like $15 bucks. The family is just 
slightly more ($20?). This is all that is necessary for geocaching. Now, if 
someone wanted to hold a geocaching 'event cache' with a BBQ and the likes 
afterwards on STL... you would need a non-profit group permit ($50 bucks). 
If you operate commercially on state trust land (then it will cost you your 
lifes savings.. literally). It is possible that if you take $2 in Where's 
George bills out of a cache.. that could be considered commercial! :)

Balloonists that fly recreationally are all operating under a $50 group 
permit issued to the local balloon club (which is then copied off for all 
the balloonist in the club). From what I was told by the STL department, 
they are putting a stop to that though (each balloonist would then have to 
get their own permit if so) although I havent yet seen this happen. It is 
possible that all us geocachers could get together and form a legitimate 
geocaching club and get a club permit for $50 bucks and all the 'members' of 
the club would pitch in, oh say, $0.50 cents each and that should cover the 
cost of the permit! (seriously) (Who us, taking advantage of the 
government.. nnnnnooooo). The commercial balloon operators are all operating 
under one of 2 commercial use permits. The costs for these permits are in 
the tens of thousands of dollars (yep). I would hope that if a commercial 
balloonist ever had to land on one of these parcels of land (we go where the 
wind takes us and you know how the weatherman can be!) that considering the 
amount of money we pay for these permits, that they will give us some 
breathing room). That is alot of money to pay to use their land and be 
denied vehicular access and have to carry out a couple thousand pounds worth 
of equiptment! Some how, I dont think they will though. :( A balloon flies 
with the wind. It goes where the wind goes. We cannot turn a steering wheel 
to go left or right to avoid landing in a restricted piece of STL. As you 
all know.. the wind is not consistant. Numerous variables change the wind 
(temp, pressure, etc). A balloon is also very limited by the amount of fuel 
we can carry. This, in addition to airspace in the air, private property and 
all the other land issues and now including these restriced areas of STL... 
makes it incredibly difficult to operate a balloon these days.

I am curious to know this.. for all of you who are purchasing permits for 
geocaching... are you purchasing it specifically for geocaching? How do they 
word it on the permit? Does the permit specifically state what types of 
travel you may use on state trust land to go get a cache?

I just wish that the state land department would simply not issue permits to 
the individuals and groups that are creating all that dust and abusing the 
'priviledges' of their state land permits and denying all those who are 
respectful of the land and treat the land accordingly access to those lands 
they are paying annual dues to use. But, why should the state change things? 
The state can keep collecting money from all these permit holders, block off 
more and more parcels of land...


Scott
Team Ropingthewind




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