Hi Steve and everybody,
Joe wrote quite an articulate and I think common sense response. I'd
like to add my personal perspective because I have done this cache.
Specifically, this was a cute and unique place. What a fun delight!
Steve, I am glad you made it a "cache" so I then was able to
experience it. I was also glad to look for and answer the specific
questions, and count it as a "find". I hope you can leave it in place
for others to enjoy.
As mentioned, I think one important thing from a geocaching
perspective is proof that the person was "there". Answering all but
the last question correctly certainly meets that standard; however, I
would add this for consideration: Many caches include some degree of
difficulty in locating it (a "find"), using "terrain" or camoflage.
Question #5 might be considered part of the virtual cache's
"camoflage"! I really had to look hard for that answer, as hard as I
have looked for some of...for example...graldrich's micros. In those
cases, someone can't legitamately count it as a "find" unless you find
that
little-stupid-painted-velcroed-and/or-magnet-stuck-up-the-***-mint-can
!!
Just something to think about. I love this Virtual cache and the fact
that it was a bit tough. Not everyone likes that kind of challange,
but then again, I am not able to log a "find" on some caches that
require steep hiking to get to. It's about what each person likes to
or is able to do, including tricky clues and such. Variety is great~!
It's still up to you how free or how legalistic you want to be.
Well, my rambling probably just confuses the issue, sorry!
take care,
Trisha "Lightning"
Prescott
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 15:24:14 -0700, "Joe Brekke" wrote:
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Steve,
If you remember we correctly gave the answer to #5
but blew an earlier question...to bad I never learned to count...or
write things
down correctly. (more probably I was distracted in what I was writing
down
as I was trying to pull my 2 y.o. out of the nearby water elements).
Although I did say that I thought I counted the
"correct" answer but I wrote down ____ I still got it wrong. I could
have
easily corrected it since I knew intuitively what was the correct
answer.
Maybe the difference is that I let you know that if you deemed the
answer to be
incorrect that I would delete the log myself and go get it some other
time. You told me that you knew that I visited the area, especially
since
I got #5 right and that it would be ok.
In the end it is your cache, and you can enforce or
relax the "rules" for it any way you would like. For me personally I
wouldn't log a cache as a find if either didn't look for or just
didn't find the
answer for something which is what you describe is happening.
For me personally, I don't really prescribe to the
whole deleting finds issue. One reason is that you are really not
going to
change the outlook of a person that logs a bogus find. An example:
At the very beginning of my caching, I hid a cache that was a 4 part
cache. When I wrote down the numbers for the coordinates, I
transposed one
of them (really dyslexic person here). It was reported to me. At the
time, I didn't know you could temporarily disable a cache, and trying
to do the
right thing (because I thought people would go out there and waste
their time
looking for it) I temporarily posted the coordinates for each of
the stages (including the final cache coordinates) until I could get
out there and straighten it out. Now I gave those coordinates
thinking
that anyone finding the cache would do what I would have done, which
was find
each of the stages before going on to the next. Well, it turns out
that isn't what happened. The team that found it just went to the
final
cache location. Now let me get to the point. I got uppity and anal,
and threatened to delete their find. (What a jerk). I was
WRONG. It's just a GAME. I GAVE them the coordinates. I
learned a valuable lesson at that time.
From that point on I have always tried to avoid
playing CACHE COP and take people a face value. If they forget or
decide
not to sign a log book ok that's their choice or mistake...everyone
makes
them. If they make a bogus "find", or lie, or cheat, in the end,
it really doesn't hurt me, and my deleting their log is not going to
change
their character. In fact, Steve, I think you and I and TM & DV have
learned that you can't change the outlook of people either, and you
end up with
the Tierra Blunder Sissy Cache...although I must say
it is always nice to have something named after you...:)
I can say that I have retrieved logs from some of
our caches, and gone back and verified on line logs to them. I have
found
some discrepencies...in fact on a couple of occasions the logs that
were missing
are from teams who are currently in the top 10 of the AZ stat page. I
have NO DOUBT that these individual teams visited the cache, however
there is
not an entry in the log to prove it. Whatever the reason they did not
log
them. Did I delete them? No.
So Steve it's your choice. In the end ask
yourself if you gain anything by deleting an on line find. This cache
is a
great one and is one that I would hate to see go by the new rules.
The
true cachers will not log the find if they have not found the answer
you are
seeking. The ones who log the finds without the correct information
are
the ones that are losing...they don't share in the satisfaction of the
true find
which is the spirit in which it was inteded to be found. If someone
is
satisfied with making an incomplete find, you are never going to
change their
outlook.
Joe
TeamBlunder
----- Original Message -----
From:
Team Tierra Buena
To: Arizona Geocaching
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 11:35
AM
Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Virtually
Confounded
Many of you have done our
Informal Introductions virtual cache (GCAB5C). For those of you
that
havent, its a very kid-friendly hunt that requires the seeker to
provide us
with the answers to five questions. Finding the answer to the fifth
question
is a little bit trickier than most virtuals, so we rated the
difficulty at
2.
Ive become surprised by the
number of people who have sent emails that contain either an
incorrect answer
to question 5, or an admission that they were unable to find that
answer;
these cachers then log as finds. The cache page states emailing
incomplete
or incorrect answers may result in our deleting your log entry
without
notice.
On one hand, the purpose of
answering the questions to a virtual is to prove that the seeker was
in the
right place. So if you get four out of five correct, its pretty
obvious the
seeker was there. And we did let one guy skate because he was
visiting from
out-of-state, and had already left town when he emailed his answers.
But many
people have returned a second time after being told that they got it
wrong,
and they were then able to find the correct answer.
So whaddya think? Should we
strictly enforce our own rule out of fairness to those who have
gotten all the
right answers or have gone back to finish the hunt, or should we say
its
only a game and let them take the credit for the find? I should
point out
that finding the correct answer to the fifth question brings the
seeker to a
particularly clever aspect of this entire area, which is why we set
the
question we did.
We talked about using only that
question instead of five, but we followed Highpointers approach to
his museum
cache series, where finding the answers to all the questions takes
the seeker
around the entire area, which is what we want them to do. We dont
want them
just running in, finding one answer and taking off for the next
cache.
Weve also discussed raising the
difficulty level to 3 and/or modifying the cache description to
state
specifically that the correct answer to question 5 must be
submitted, but Im
afraid that making any modifications to the cache page might result
in its
being re-evaluated under the current guidelines for virtuals, and
then we
might be forced to archive a cache that always gets positive log
comments.
We welcome your comments and
suggestions, but please avoid posting anything that might be a
spoiler.
TIA.
Steve
Team Tierra
Buena
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