RE: [Az-Geocaching] Just wondering, please no fighting

You've both made some very good points and sparked a couple of thoughts.
Although I don't fall into the "handicapped" category your discussing, I'd
like to throw in some ideas. I tend to take a broader view of the world.
First, I like that you mentioned the word "limitations". I was going to
propose that. When we say "handicapped", most people think of a small range
of physical limitations. As you pointed out, there is really a huge range.
Beyond that, though, I would even propose we include non-physical
limitations. I know people that are paralyzingly afraid of heights. We've
all seen rest areas and scenic lookouts that are paved and completely flat.
A person in a wheel chair might easily be able to get a cache there if
placed well, but a person afraid of heights might not go anywhere near the
edge. There are lots of other limitations, but you get the idea.

My second thought is on the use of text. I think that any way it is done
would require some dependence on the hider. We probably wouldn't get the
consistency needed to do any worthwhile searching. Besides, if it's too
much work, people just won't do it. I'm wondering if we could do something
like the travel sites do for hotels. Just lots of check boxes. Does it
have a pool? A restaurant? Wheelchair accessible? I'm sure we could come
up with a decent set of questions that would not be too imposing on the
cache owner, but would still be useful to the finder. Then, it would be a
simple matter to perform searches based on those well defined attributes.

OK, I just had a third thought. Perhaps if getting anything done at
geocaching.com is too difficult, maybe we could have an independent Arizona
engine with these attributes. It would be more effort for the owners and
would make searching slightly more difficult, but I bet many of us would
gladly use it. That might even give geocaching.com the kick in the rear
needed to make some changes. Especially if they know we members are
questioning the value we receive for what we're paying.

So, just a bunch of jumbled thoughts. I think if we had someone
spearheading the effort, more would join in.

CacheLess
Bill Tomlinson

-----Original Message-----
From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
Ayre
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 8:31 AM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Just wondering, please no fighting


Well its quite simple really. The current system (1 star) is IMO inadequate
because is relies on the hider knowing what "handicap accessible" really
means, and lets face it - most people don't have a clue. If you go to the
clayjar cache rating sysem thingmyjig, it describes 1 star as being
wheelchair accessible. This is a perfect example IMO of someone writing an
attempt at a handicap description and not having a clue. People in
wheelchairs can often go further and longer than someone on crutches. IMO
its a crude attempt at finding the "lowest common denominator".

So rather than that, I think hiders should use some kind of guided questions
or format to create an accurate textual (not stars!) description of surface
type, inclines, height of cache off ground, whether you have to reach into a
bush to find it, flat or inclined parking, etc. Armed with this information
handicapped people can make up their own minds whether they can do it with
their particular set of disabilities, and hiders don't have to try and take
into account what little they often know about a massive range of different
limitations that fall under the broad description of "handicapped".

This information is obviously a spoiler for everyone else and could give
away the hiding location in most instances. So this description needs to be
encrypted like the hints or require clicking on a seperate link to view it,
so non-handicapped people can ignore it.

Finally, it should be possible to search based on this description or view
just this description of all the nearest caches on a summary page, so
handicapped people can quickly scan through the list, read and find the ones
they can do - similar to what most of us probably do right now with the
stars to some degree.

Pros: allows handicapped people to quickly identify which caches they can do
and be included more in the fun of geocaching

Cons: takes away some of the fun of finding the cache because the
description will likely give away the location.

This is the best I can come up with. I'll be adding something like this to
the caches I've hidden when I get time.

Background: my wife is handicapped and often requires the use of crutches
and a wheelchair. I have found it very tough to work out which caches we can
do together and so far its been mostly urban ones. Its very dissapointing to
get out in the backcountry to find a cache that should be ok for her on
paper and on topo maps (I use the 3D function, profile function and distance
measuring in Terrain Naviagator to try to assess the terrain) and find that
she cannot do it.

If anyone has a better idea, I would love to hear it. Suggesting similar
things to the above idea on the forums at geocaching.com has been a waste of
time based on the responses it gets. IMO geocaching.com falls completely
short of attempting to include handicapped people and I don't think it would
require much effort to implement something (anything!) better.

Andy



-----Original Message-----
From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com]On Behalf Of gale and
mike
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 4:29 PM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Just wondering, please no fighting



[Snipped]



For Andy/Groover/TeamSpike:

As a person with physical limitations (for those of you who have seen me, I
hide them quite well), I appreciate the difficulties in assessing handicap
accessibility on cache pages. If you've posted ideas about this in the past
with geocaching.com, how about posting them here so that all future cache
hiders will have an idea of what would help the many handicapped geocachers
in this state. One thing I like is a good description in the cache page (ie
road requires high clearance vehicle, rock scrambling required, fairly level
terrain). I can more readily determine if I can physically attempt the cache
that way than just by sticking the handicap symbol on the easiest terrain
caches. Perhaps we can compile a list of handicapped accessible caches and
have azgeocaching.com note on their website who to contact for an updated
list. I wouldn't mind being the contact (on another e-mail address).