[Az-Geocaching] Virtually Confounded
Joe Brekke
listserv@azgeocaching.com
Sun, 26 Oct 2003 15:24:14 -0700
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Steve,
If you remember we correctly gave the answer to #5 but blew an earlier =
question...to bad I never learned to count...or write things down =
correctly. (more probably I was distracted in what I was writing down =
as I was trying to pull my 2 y.o. out of the nearby water elements). =20
Although I did say that I thought I counted the "correct" answer but I =
wrote down ____ I still got it wrong. I could have easily corrected it =
since I knew intuitively what was the correct answer. Maybe the =
difference is that I let you know that if you deemed the answer to be =
incorrect that I would delete the log myself and go get it some other =
time. You told me that you knew that I visited the area, especially =
since I got #5 right and that it would be ok.
In the end it is your cache, and you can enforce or relax the "rules" =
for it any way you would like. For me personally I wouldn't log a cache =
as a find if either didn't look for or just didn't find the answer for =
something which is what you describe is happening. =20
For me personally, I don't really prescribe to the whole deleting finds =
issue. One reason is that you are really not going to change the =
outlook of a person that logs a bogus find. An example: At the very =
beginning of my caching, I hid a cache that was a 4 part cache. When I =
wrote down the numbers for the coordinates, I transposed one of them =
(really dyslexic person here). It was reported to me. At the time, I =
didn't know you could temporarily disable a cache, and trying to do the =
right thing (because I thought people would go out there and waste their =
time looking for it) I temporarily posted the coordinates for each of =
the stages (including the final cache coordinates) until I could get out =
there and straighten it out. Now I gave those coordinates thinking that =
anyone finding the cache would do what I would have done, which was find =
each of the stages before going on to the next. Well, it turns out that =
isn't what happened. The team that found it just went to the final =
cache location. Now let me get to the point. I got uppity and anal, =
and threatened to delete their find. (What a jerk). I was WRONG. It's =
just a GAME. I GAVE them the coordinates. I learned a valuable lesson =
at that time.
>From that point on I have always tried to avoid playing CACHE COP and =
take people a face value. If they forget or decide not to sign a log =
book ok that's their choice or mistake...everyone makes them. If they =
make a bogus "find", or lie, or cheat, in the end, it really doesn't =
hurt me, and my deleting their log is not going to change their =
character. In fact, Steve, I think you and I and TM & DV have learned =
that you can't change the outlook of people either, and you end up with =
the Tierra Blunder Sissy Cache...although I must say it is always nice =
to have something named after you...:) =20
I can say that I have retrieved logs from some of our caches, and gone =
back and verified on line logs to them. I have found some =
discrepencies...in fact on a couple of occasions the logs that were =
missing are from teams who are currently in the top 10 of the AZ stat =
page. I have NO DOUBT that these individual teams visited the cache, =
however there is not an entry in the log to prove it. Whatever the =
reason they did not log them. Did I delete them? No.
So Steve it's your choice. In the end ask yourself if you gain anything =
by deleting an on line find. This cache is a great one and is one that =
I would hate to see go by the new rules. The true cachers will not log =
the find if they have not found the answer you are seeking. The ones =
who log the finds without the correct information are the ones that are =
losing...they don't share in the satisfaction of the true find which is =
the spirit in which it was inteded to be found. If someone is satisfied =
with making an incomplete find, you are never going to change their =
outlook.
Joe
TeamBlunder
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Team Tierra Buena=20
To: Arizona Geocaching=20
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 11:35 AM
Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Virtually Confounded
Many of you have done our "Informal Introductions" virtual cache =
(GCAB5C). For those of you that haven't, it's a very kid-friendly hunt =
that requires the seeker to provide us with the answers to five =
questions. Finding the answer to the fifth question is a little bit =
trickier than most virtuals, so we rated the difficulty at 2.
I've become surprised by the number of people who have sent emails =
that contain either an incorrect answer to question 5, or an admission =
that they were unable to find that answer; these cachers then log as =
"finds". The cache page states "emailing incomplete or incorrect answers =
may result in our deleting your log entry without notice".
On one hand, the purpose of answering the questions to a virtual is to =
prove that the seeker was in the right place. So if you get four out of =
five correct, it's pretty obvious the seeker was there. And we did let =
one guy skate because he was visiting from out-of-state, and had already =
left town when he emailed his answers. But many people have returned a =
second time after being told that they got it wrong, and they were then =
able to find the correct answer.
So whaddya think? Should we strictly enforce our own rule out of =
fairness to those who have gotten all the right answers or have gone =
back to finish the hunt, or should we say "it's only a game" and let =
them take the credit for the find? I should point out that finding the =
correct answer to the fifth question brings the seeker to a particularly =
clever aspect of this entire area, which is why we set the question we =
did.
We talked about using only that question instead of five, but we =
followed Highpointer's approach to his museum cache series, where =
finding the answers to all the questions takes the seeker around the =
entire area, which is what we want them to do. We don't want them just =
running in, finding one answer and taking off for the next cache.
We've also discussed raising the difficulty level to 3 and/or =
modifying the cache description to state specifically that the correct =
answer to question 5 must be submitted, but I'm afraid that making any =
modifications to the cache page might result in it's being re-evaluated =
under the current guidelines for virtuals, and then we might be forced =
to archive a cache that always gets positive log comments.
We welcome your comments and suggestions, but please avoid posting =
anything that might be a spoiler. TIA.
Steve
Team Tierra Buena
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Steve,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you remember we correctly gave the =
answer to #5=20
but blew an earlier question...to bad I never learned to count...or =
write things=20
down correctly. (more probably I was distracted in what I was =
writing down=20
as I was trying to pull my 2 y.o. out of the nearby water =
elements). =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Although I did say that I thought I =
counted the=20
"correct" answer but I wrote down ____ I still got it wrong. I =
could have=20
easily corrected it since I knew intuitively what was the correct =
answer. =20
Maybe the difference is that I let you know that if you deemed the =
answer to be=20
incorrect that I would delete the log myself and go get it some other=20
time. You told me that you knew that I visited the area, =
especially since=20
I got #5 right and that it would be ok.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the end it is your cache, and you =
can enforce or=20
relax the "rules" for it any way you would like. For me personally =
I=20
wouldn't log a cache as a find if either didn't look for or just didn't =
find the=20
answer for something which is what you describe is happening. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For me personally, I don't really =
prescribe to the=20
whole deleting finds issue. One reason is that you are really not =
going to=20
change the outlook of a person that logs a bogus find. An =
example: =20
At the very beginning of my caching, I hid a cache that was a 4 part=20
cache. When I wrote down the numbers for the coordinates, I =
transposed one=20
of them (really dyslexic person here). It was reported to =
me. At the=20
time, I didn't know you could temporarily disable a cache, and trying to =
do the=20
right thing (because I thought people would go out there and waste their =
time=20
looking for it) I temporarily posted the coordinates for each of=20
the stages (including the final cache coordinates) until I =
could get=20
out there and straighten it out. Now I gave those coordinates =
thinking=20
that anyone finding the cache would do what I would have done, <U>which =
was find=20
each of the stages before going on to the next</U>. Well, it turns =
out=20
that isn't what happened. The team that found it just went to the =
final=20
cache location. Now let me get to the point. I got uppity =
and anal,=20
and threatened to delete their find. (What a jerk). I was=20
WRONG. It's just a GAME. I GAVE them the coordinates. =
I=20
learned a valuable lesson at that time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From that point on I have always tried =
to avoid=20
playing CACHE COP and take people a face value. If they forget or =
decide=20
not to sign a log book ok that's their choice or mistake...everyone =
makes=20
them. If they make a bogus "find", or lie, or cheat, in =
the end,=20
it really doesn't hurt me, and my deleting their log is not going to =
change=20
their character. In fact, Steve, I think you and I and TM & DV =
have=20
learned that you can't change the outlook of people either, and you end =
up with=20
the <STRONG><EM>Tierra Blunder Sissy Cache</EM></STRONG>...although I =
must say=20
it is always nice to have something named after you...:) =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I can say that I have retrieved logs =
from some of=20
our caches, and gone back and verified on line logs to them. I =
have found=20
some discrepencies...in fact on a couple of occasions the logs that were =
missing=20
are from teams who are currently in the top 10 of the AZ stat =
page. I=20
have NO DOUBT that these individual teams visited the cache, however =
there is=20
not an entry in the log to prove it. Whatever the reason they did =
not log=20
them. Did I delete them? No.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So Steve it's your choice. In the =
end ask=20
yourself if you gain anything by deleting an on line find. This =
cache is a=20
great one and is one that I would hate to see go by the new rules. =
The=20
true cachers will not log the find if they have not found the answer you =
are=20
seeking. The ones who log the finds without the correct =
information are=20
the ones that are losing...they don't share in the satisfaction of the =
true find=20
which is the spirit in which it was inteded to be found. If =
someone is=20
satisfied with making an incomplete find, you are never going to change =
their=20
outlook.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Joe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>TeamBlunder</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DTeamTierraBuena@earthlink.net=20
href=3D"mailto:TeamTierraBuena@earthlink.net">Team Tierra Buena</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Daz-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com=20
href=3D"mailto:az-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com">Arizona =
Geocaching</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 26, 2003 =
11:35=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Az-Geocaching] =
Virtually=20
Confounded</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Many of you have done =
our=20
“Informal Introductions” virtual cache (GCAB5C). For those =
of you that=20
haven’t, it’s a very kid-friendly hunt that requires the =
seeker to provide us=20
with the answers to five questions. Finding the answer to the fifth =
question=20
is a little bit trickier than most virtuals, so we rated the =
difficulty at=20
2.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’ve become =
surprised by the=20
number of people who have sent emails that contain either an incorrect =
answer=20
to question 5, or an admission that they were unable to find that =
answer;=20
these cachers then log as “finds”. The cache page states =
“emailing incomplete=20
or incorrect answers may result in our deleting your log entry without =
notice”.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">On one hand, the purpose =
of=20
answering the questions to a virtual is to prove that the seeker was =
in the=20
right place. So if you get four out of five correct, it’s pretty =
obvious the=20
seeker was there. And we did let one guy skate because he was visiting =
from=20
out-of-state, and had already left town when he emailed his answers. =
But many=20
people have returned a second time after being told that they got it =
wrong,=20
and they were then able to find the correct answer.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So whaddya think? Should =
we=20
strictly enforce our own rule out of fairness to those who have gotten =
all the=20
right answers or have gone back to finish the hunt, or should we say =
“it’s=20
only a game” and let them take the credit for the find? I should =
point out=20
that finding the correct answer to the fifth question brings the =
seeker to a=20
particularly clever aspect of this entire area, which is why we set =
the=20
question we did.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">We talked about using =
only that=20
question instead of five, but we followed Highpointer’s approach =
to his museum=20
cache series, where finding the answers to all the questions takes the =
seeker=20
around the entire area, which is what we want them to do. We =
don’t want them=20
just running in, finding one answer and taking off for the next=20
cache.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">We’ve also =
discussed raising the=20
difficulty level to 3 and/or modifying the cache description to state=20
specifically that the correct answer to question 5 must be submitted, =
but I’m=20
afraid that making any modifications to the cache page might result in =
it’s=20
being re-evaluated under the current guidelines for virtuals, and then =
we=20
might be forced to archive a cache that always gets positive log=20
comments.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">We welcome your comments =
and=20
suggestions, but please avoid posting anything that might be a =
spoiler.=20
TIA.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Steve</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Team Tierra=20
Buena</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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