[Az-Geocaching] Re: Who Manages What an IDEA
Gale
listserv@azgeocaching.com
Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:46:37 -0800 (PST)
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A great idea! This ought to go a long way to squelching any problems between them and us.
Regan L Smith <buggers@mindspring.com> wrote:let's not forget what else I was told " This park is not here for your
little game" this of all statements have me pissed and I am going to report
this Officer and I just forgot his name.....
here is a thought and Steve if you would also give it a thought
Lets have an EVENT CACHE AT USERY PARK, since it is near Bulldog and the
Tonto maybe a Ranger can come and talk... I will contact Usery while
reporting the officer with a personal agenda but will also find out what it
will take to reserve a Ramada and fire up the grill, I am thinking of
sponsoring it hot dogs/ hamburger buns , should get some soda from work and
then let everyone bring the fixings and extras
this would also be a good time to bring newbie's because with officials
there we could hear first hand the rules...... and maybe wishful thinking an
ammo can for a cache to be hidden......
----- Original Message -----
From: "RopingThe Wind"
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 8:22 PM
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What
>
>
> >From: "Team Tierra Buena"
> >Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
> >To:
> >Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What
> >Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:45:11 -0700
> >
> >Regan,
> >
> >I'm glad I read your log before I replied. Maricopa County Parks are not
> >"national forest", as you wrote below (you had me going there for a
couple
> >of minutes!).
> >
> >I think what it comes down to is that it is illegal to enter a Maricopa
> >County Park for ANY reason without paying the "user fee". But the MCP
> >representative at the land management meeting last month did say that
they
> >were planning to revise their policy to make it much more restrictive on
> >the
> >placement of geocaches than it has been. That saddened me, because I
> >thought
> >MCP's "two mile rule" was a great compromise.
> >
> >Coincidentally, I got a private email today from someone who wrote me
that
> >our "Grandma Sarah's Cache", which is in the McDowell Mountain Regional
> >Park
> >(part of MCP), may be missing and that a ranger there told him "it better
> >not be there". But as of this morning, when I was checking it for
something
> >else, their "old" policy is still on the web site
> >(http://www.maricopa.gov/parks/news/). What worries me now is that they
may
> >have issued a new policy to the park staff, but haven't yet bothered to
> >make
> >it available to the general public. I hope my fear is unfounded.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >Team Tierra Buena
>
>
> Steve,
>
> Regan's log is rather incomplete. I would like to tell the whole story. I
> was with Regan today. We went out for two caches. I had already found
ARRGG
> cache a long time ago. But, Regan had not. We were then going to go do K9
> Conclusion Cache, which I had not yet attempted. Now, with Regan driving
and
> I in the passenger seat, we pulled up and parked on the side of Usuarry
Pass
> Rd, just about due east of the AARRGG Cache. There are no 'no parking'
signs
> along this stretch of the road. Also, there were no 'park boundary' signs
> that we saw in the vicinity of the hill that AARRGG Cache is on. There was
a
> fence line south of the AARRGG Cache that did have a 'park boundary' sign
> posted on it. This fence ended it's north run along the side of the
roadway
> and then turned toward the west. We never crossed a fence or 'park
boundary'
> sign on our way from the roadway (were we parked) to the cache. We arrive
at
> the cache and I look back to see a park ranger at Regan's car. After
logging
> his find, we head back to the car. The park ranger greeted us and asked
for
> ID and all that good stuff. He then told us we were tresspassing. He said
> this was private property. I explained that the park boundary fence line
> terminates just south of here and then turns west. At no time, did we
cross
> a fence to get to the cache nor pass a sign stating this was private
> property or a park boundary. We then explained to the ranger what we were
> doing back there and that we were geocaching and showed him the printout
of
> the cache page. OH WAIT! We just said GEOCACHE... When we said we were
> geocaching the park ranger said "oh dont tell me you were geocaching or I
> will arrest you right now". Those were his very words. So, Regan said.. oh
> we were just hiking :) At any rate, after a few minutes of getting the 5th
> degree, the officer was 'kind' enough to let us off the hook. But, we did
> spend several minutes talking about geocaching. The park ranger said
> "geocaching is illegal on Maricopa County Park lands". I told him that I
> recall reading of the regulations outlining geocaching on Maricopa County
> Parks web site concerning where geocaches can be placed. He said there
were
> no laws or guidelines written for geocaching in the county parks and that
it
> is illegal to cache on county parks land. Now we all know this is not
true,
> since it is outlined on the County Parks web site.
>
> At any rate... we were apparently on County Park land and we were indeed
> trespassing. But, since it was decided we werent geocaching, he let us go.
> :/ I again explained that I would have never gone to the cache if I knew
I
> was doing so unlawfully.
>
> Later in our conversations, the park ranger said that we could basically
do
> anything out there as long as we had a permit (do I hear a contradiction
> here???). A permit costs like $4 or $5 bucks to enter the park. That's all
> fine, but I had no idea we were in the park or we would have purchased a
> permit! Later yet in our conversations with the ranger, he also told us it
> was illegal to geocache on National Forest land.
>
> WELL, DAMN.. I REALLY AM CONFUSED NOW!!!!!!!!!!
>
> The park ranger (police officer) also said that he could arrest us for
> geocaching and tresspassing and also seize our home computers and house
and
> everything else. We listened to him, spoke our peace and we were then on o
ur
> way. We did have conversation for several minutes and the whole
conversation
> was low toned and we were respectful of the park rangers position. After
> shaking hands, we were on our way.
>
> I don't know what to make of this whole thing.....
>
> Maricopa County Parks says it is ok to geocache as long as we follow
certain
> guidelines, guidelines which are outlined on their website. This park
ranger
> says we can't. Which is it?!?! What about National Forest land? I have
gone
> 28 years of my life without any kind of negative run in's with the law
until
> I got into geocaching. Since I began geocaching, I have been approached
> numerous times by city police, park rangers, and even a police detective
> about what I was doing and sometimes the legality of what I was doing
would
> be questioned. Of course, most all of these encounters where while doing
> urban caches. On this speciic above mentioned cache, we were seeking out
an
> ammo can in a wilderness type setting (county park as it were). I never,
> ever thought I would deal with these kinds of issues while geocaching in
the
> wilderness. I never have been a fan of urban caching. I always enjoyed
doing
> the wilderness type caches. Now, I cant do that without being questioned
by
> authorities. I am not sure I like this game much anymore. Like most
anything
> we do in life, it becomes less and less fun as it becomes more restrictive
> through government regulation. Is this the goal of our government? To
> control the people until we have no freedom to do the things we enjoy?!
Some
> things in life, we must deal with this government regulations as it may
> concern something we do for a living. However, geocaching is not how I
make
> my living, it is merely a hobby. I simply don't care to deal with these
> kinds of issues anymore and I at this time am contemplating standing aside
> to guage where this hobby/sport of geocaching is going. I don't want to
play
> this game anymore unless I can have an actual paper copy of every land
> agency's regulations concerning geocaching. This way, I know exactly where
> my boundaries are and I can be 100% sure I am doing so lawfully.
>
> I deal with landowner issues in another hobby of mine. That hobby is also
> how I make my living. I am constantly dealing with city ordinance issues
and
> the like. It is regulated on a local, state and federal level. I have had
> meetings with many different east valley municipalities' concerning
> regulations and ordinances. I have even met with the chief's of police in
a
> couple of these cities. I just have no desire to deal with these issues in
> any other areas. I have 800 cache finds in less than two years and
obviously
> enjoy the hobby very much. But, I don't like feeling like a criminal
> everytime I go seeking out a cache... even in a wilderness environment. It
> just isn't fun.
>
> Scott
> Team Ropingthewind
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
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> http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching
>
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> http://www.azgeocaching.com
____________________________________________________________
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Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking
Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes
On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so:
"Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges --
"Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!"
Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898
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<DIV>A great idea! This ought to go a long way to squelching any problems between them and us.<BR><BR><B><I>Regan L Smith <buggers@mindspring.com></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">let's not forget what else I was told " This park is not here for your<BR>little game" this of all statements have me pissed and I am going to report<BR>this Officer and I just forgot his name.....<BR><BR>here is a thought and Steve if you would also give it a thought<BR><BR>Lets have an EVENT CACHE AT USERY PARK, since it is near Bulldog and the<BR>Tonto maybe a Ranger can come and talk... I will contact Usery while<BR>reporting the officer with a personal agenda but will also find out what it<BR>will take to reserve a Ramada and fire up the grill, I am thinking of<BR>sponsoring it hot dogs/ hamburger buns , should get some soda from work and<BR>then let everyone bring the fixings and extras<BR>this would also be a good time to bring newbie's because with officials<BR>there we could hear first hand the rules...... and maybe wishful thinking an<BR>ammo can for a cache to be
hidden......<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "RopingThe Wind" <ARIZCOWBOY@HOTMAIL.COM><BR>To: <LISTSERV@AZGEOCACHING.COM><BR>Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 8:22 PM<BR>Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What<BR><BR><BR>><BR>><BR>> >From: "Team Tierra Buena" <TEAMTIERRABUENA@EARTHLINK.NET><BR>> >Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com<BR>> >To: <LISTSERV@AZGEOCACHING.COM><BR>> >Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What<BR>> >Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:45:11 -0700<BR>> ><BR>> >Regan,<BR>> ><BR>> >I'm glad I read your log before I replied. Maricopa County Parks are not<BR>> >"national forest", as you wrote below (you had me going there for a<BR>couple<BR>> >of minutes!).<BR>> ><BR>> >I think what it comes down to is that it is illegal to enter a Maricopa<BR>> >County Park for ANY reason without paying the "user fee". But the MCP<BR>> >representative at the land mana
gement
meeting last month did say that<BR>they<BR>> >were planning to revise their policy to make it much more restrictive on<BR>> >the<BR>> >placement of geocaches than it has been. That saddened me, because I<BR>> >thought<BR>> >MCP's "two mile rule" was a great compromise.<BR>> ><BR>> >Coincidentally, I got a private email today from someone who wrote me<BR>that<BR>> >our "Grandma Sarah's Cache", which is in the McDowell Mountain Regional<BR>> >Park<BR>> >(part of MCP), may be missing and that a ranger there told him "it better<BR>> >not be there". But as of this morning, when I was checking it for<BR>something<BR>> >else, their "old" policy is still on the web site<BR>> >(http://www.maricopa.gov/parks/news/). What worries me now is that they<BR>may<BR>> >have issued a new policy to the park staff, but haven't yet bothered to<BR>> >make<BR>> >it available to the general public. I hope
my fear
is unfounded.<BR>> ><BR>> >Steve<BR>> ><BR>> >Team Tierra Buena<BR>><BR>><BR>> Steve,<BR>><BR>> Regan's log is rather incomplete. I would like to tell the whole story. I<BR>> was with Regan today. We went out for two caches. I had already found<BR>ARRGG<BR>> cache a long time ago. But, Regan had not. We were then going to go do K9<BR>> Conclusion Cache, which I had not yet attempted. Now, with Regan driving<BR>and<BR>> I in the passenger seat, we pulled up and parked on the side of Usuarry<BR>Pass<BR>> Rd, just about due east of the AARRGG Cache. There are no 'no parking'<BR>signs<BR>> along this stretch of the road. Also, there were no 'park boundary' signs<BR>> that we saw in the vicinity of the hill that AARRGG Cache is on. There was<BR>a<BR>> fence line south of the AARRGG Cache that did have a 'park boundary' sign<BR>> posted on it. This fence ended it's north run along the side of the<BR>roadway<BR>>
and then
turned toward the west. We never crossed a fence or 'park<BR>boundary'<BR>> sign on our way from the roadway (were we parked) to the cache. We arrive<BR>at<BR>> the cache and I look back to see a park ranger at Regan's car. After<BR>logging<BR>> his find, we head back to the car. The park ranger greeted us and asked<BR>for<BR>> ID and all that good stuff. He then told us we were tresspassing. He said<BR>> this was private property. I explained that the park boundary fence line<BR>> terminates just south of here and then turns west. At no time, did we<BR>cross<BR>> a fence to get to the cache nor pass a sign stating this was private<BR>> property or a park boundary. We then explained to the ranger what we were<BR>> doing back there and that we were geocaching and showed him the printout<BR>of<BR>> the cache page. OH WAIT! We just said GEOCACHE... When we said we were<BR>> geocaching the park ranger said "oh dont tell me you were geocaching or
I<BR>> will arrest you right now". Those were his very words. So, Regan said.. oh<BR>> we were just hiking :) At any rate, after a few minutes of getting the 5th<BR>> degree, the officer was 'kind' enough to let us off the hook. But, we did<BR>> spend several minutes talking about geocaching. The park ranger said<BR>> "geocaching is illegal on Maricopa County Park lands". I told him that I<BR>> recall reading of the regulations outlining geocaching on Maricopa County<BR>> Parks web site concerning where geocaches can be placed. He said there<BR>were<BR>> no laws or guidelines written for geocaching in the county parks and that<BR>it<BR>> is illegal to cache on county parks land. Now we all know this is not<BR>true,<BR>> since it is outlined on the County Parks web site.<BR>><BR>> At any rate... we were apparently on County Park land and we were indeed<BR>> trespassing. But, since it was decided we werent geocaching, he let us go.<BR>>
; :/ I
again explained that I would have never gone to the cache if I knew<BR>I<BR>> was doing so unlawfully.<BR>><BR>> Later in our conversations, the park ranger said that we could basically<BR>do<BR>> anything out there as long as we had a permit (do I hear a contradiction<BR>> here???). A permit costs like $4 or $5 bucks to enter the park. That's all<BR>> fine, but I had no idea we were in the park or we would have purchased a<BR>> permit! Later yet in our conversations with the ranger, he also told us it<BR>> was illegal to geocache on National Forest land.<BR>><BR>> WELL, DAMN.. I REALLY AM CONFUSED NOW!!!!!!!!!!<BR>><BR>> The park ranger (police officer) also said that he could arrest us for<BR>> geocaching and tresspassing and also seize our home computers and house<BR>and<BR>> everything else. We listened to him, spoke our peace and we were then on o<BR>ur<BR>> way. We did have conversation for several minutes and the
whole<BR>conversation<BR>> was low toned and we were respectful of the park rangers position. After<BR>> shaking hands, we were on our way.<BR>><BR>> I don't know what to make of this whole thing.....<BR>><BR>> Maricopa County Parks says it is ok to geocache as long as we follow<BR>certain<BR>> guidelines, guidelines which are outlined on their website. This park<BR>ranger<BR>> says we can't. Which is it?!?! What about National Forest land? I have<BR>gone<BR>> 28 years of my life without any kind of negative run in's with the law<BR>until<BR>> I got into geocaching. Since I began geocaching, I have been approached<BR>> numerous times by city police, park rangers, and even a police detective<BR>> about what I was doing and sometimes the legality of what I was doing<BR>would<BR>> be questioned. Of course, most all of these encounters where while doing<BR>> urban caches. On this speciic above mentioned cache, we were seeking out<BR>an<B
R>>
ammo can in a wilderness type setting (county park as it were). I never,<BR>> ever thought I would deal with these kinds of issues while geocaching in<BR>the<BR>> wilderness. I never have been a fan of urban caching. I always enjoyed<BR>doing<BR>> the wilderness type caches. Now, I cant do that without being questioned<BR>by<BR>> authorities. I am not sure I like this game much anymore. Like most<BR>anything<BR>> we do in life, it becomes less and less fun as it becomes more restrictive<BR>> through government regulation. Is this the goal of our government? To<BR>> control the people until we have no freedom to do the things we enjoy?!<BR>Some<BR>> things in life, we must deal with this government regulations as it may<BR>> concern something we do for a living. However, geocaching is not how I<BR>make<BR>> my living, it is merely a hobby. I simply don't care to deal with these<BR>> kinds of issues anymore and I at this time am contemplating s
tanding
aside<BR>> to guage where this hobby/sport of geocaching is going. I don't want to<BR>play<BR>> this game anymore unless I can have an actual paper copy of every land<BR>> agency's regulations concerning geocaching. This way, I know exactly where<BR>> my boundaries are and I can be 100% sure I am doing so lawfully.<BR>><BR>> I deal with landowner issues in another hobby of mine. That hobby is also<BR>> how I make my living. I am constantly dealing with city ordinance issues<BR>and<BR>> the like. It is regulated on a local, state and federal level. I have had<BR>> meetings with many different east valley municipalities' concerning<BR>> regulations and ordinances. I have even met with the chief's of police in<BR>a<BR>> couple of these cities. I just have no desire to deal with these issues in<BR>> any other areas. I have 800 cache finds in less than two years and<BR>obviously<BR>> enjoy the hobby very much. But, I don't like feeling like
a
criminal<BR>> everytime I go seeking out a cache... even in a wilderness environment. It<BR>> just isn't fun.<BR>><BR>> Scott<BR>> Team Ropingthewind<BR>><BR>> _________________________________________________________________<BR>> See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now<BR>> FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com<BR>><BR>> ____________________________________________________________<BR>> Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com<BR>> To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit:<BR>> http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching<BR>><BR>> Arizona's Geocaching Resource<BR>> http://www.azgeocaching.com<BR><BR>____________________________________________________________<BR>Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com<BR>To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit:<BR>http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching<BR><BR>Arizo
na's
Geocaching Resource<BR>http://www.azgeocaching.com</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#6633cc></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes<BR> On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so:<BR>"Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges --<BR> "Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#6633cc></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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