[Az-Geocaching] Report from Pueblo Grande [Long]

Wed, 1 Oct 2003 19:44:06 -0700

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Nice read Steve the only thing I am fuzzy on is what I call you? :)

=20

"Steve" usually gets my attention. :-)  I did attend another land =
management
meeting back in January where I introduced myself as "an unofficial,
unelected representative of a nonexistent organization".

=20

I still need to get back with P Liddy of the Mesa Ranger District and =
talk
about a cache for the Bull Dog Canyon area....thanks for the reminder=20

=20

I thought he was a rapper?

=20

Steve

Team Tierra Buena

=20

=20

=20

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Team Tierra Buena <mailto:TeamTierraBuena@earthlink.net> =20

To: Arizona Geocaching <mailto:az-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com>  =

Cc: Mary L. Estes <mailto:mestes@pr.state.az.us> =20

Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 3:00 PM

Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Report from Pueblo Grande [Long]

=20

Besides posting this on the azgeocaching.com mailing list, I am copying =
Mary
Estes, who heads up the Site Steward program, and arranged and =
facilitated
last night's meeting. I hope that others who attended the meeting will =
also
post their impressions and opinions, particularly where they disagree =
with
my views.

=20

The Geocaching community was represented by Marc and Julie (Tamo's
Clan'Destiny), Brian (Team Snaptek and azgeocaching.com), Christy and =
Joe
(Pet Posse), Mark (Highway Havoc), Bob Renner (Bob Renner), and me. (Did =
I
forget anyone? My apologies if I did. Lately my memory cells seem to be
flaking off faster than my dandruff.) The land management agencies
represented included the State Historic Preservation Office (which =
sponsors
the Site Steward program), City of Phoenix, City of Scottsdale, Maricopa
County, Bureau of Land Management, Tonto National Forest, and the Kofa
National Wildlife Refuge outside of Yuma.

=20

I think the atmosphere was very different from the meeting that was held =
a
year ago. I believe this is due to the fact that the land managers =
recognize
that most Geocachers want to practice our recreation in a responsible
fashion, and that we have done and continue to do what we can as a =
"virtual
community" to educate others in what our responsibilities are. I would =
go so
far as to say that every land management representative in attendance
recognizes the positives in an activity such as Geocaching, and they are
willing to support it insofar as it doesn't conflict with the =
regulations of
their respective agencies (and we have to remember that every paid land
management representative at that meeting gets their pay from some
government agency or other).

=20

I've preached this before here, but it was said repeatedly last night: =
The
best thing we can do to prevent problems is to obtain permission before
placing a cache. That's not always the easiest thing in the world to do, =
and
everyone in attendance recognized that. The issues range from trying to
figure out which agency is responsible for the area where you want to =
place
the cache, to finding our what that agency's rules are, to finding =
someone
who actually knows what you're talking about and can help you. But it's
worth the effort.

=20

Everyone also seems to be aware that not every Geocacher in Arizona
subscribes to this mailing list, or is even aware that azgeocaching.com
exists, and that people, particularly newcomers, may go off more in
ignorance than anything else and do something that they shouldn't. I =
think
it is up to us to do what we can to let new cachers know about resources
such as this mailing list and web site. Brian stated that he would be
updating the links on the web site to reflect some of the new Geocaching
policies we have received (and I'll get you the BLM policy tomorrow, =
Brian).
And we hope to be able to put together a starter list of permission =
contacts
for those agencies where we have them.

=20

This seems like a good time to remind everyone of what we came up with =
after
last year's meeting, which got dubbed "Geo-mentoring". If you own a =
cache,
and get a log entry from someone who is relatively new (based on their =
find
count), why not drop them a note welcoming them to Geocaching and =
letting
them know about azgeocaching.com and the listserv? If anyone would like =
a
copy of the boilerplate I use for this, drop me an email.

=20

Random notes: The Phoenix Preserve sounds as though they are going to be
enforcing their "no off-trail" policy more strictly. I don't have my =
copy of
the policy with me here, but everyone who attended got a copy, so I hope
someone will post it in short order.

=20

Tonto National Forest continues to welcome Geocaching, except in =
designated
wilderness areas and anywhere that would threaten an archaeological =
site. It
is for the latter reason that they "suggest but do not require" that you
contact the appropriate District Office before you place a cache within
Tonto.

=20

One item that saddened me a little was that Maricopa County Parks and
Recreation announced that they are going to be updating their Geocaching
policy and eliminate the "two-mile rule". But since they want permission
from the Park Supervisor for any caches placed within their parks, I =
think
it might still be possible to work with them if you have a good location
that's far enough back from the trailhead and not too far (whatever that
means) off the trail. It was nice to hear that the Pet Posse are working
with the county staff to see if they might be able to implement a =
reduced
"geocaching-only entrance fee".=20

=20

Kofa NWR has some concerns about some specific caches already placed =
within
the Refuge, but Susana Henry, the representative from Kofa, told me she
would look into them individually herself. Again, she does not appear to =
be
opposed to caches within the Refuge, so I would advise anyone planning =
on
placing a cache down there to contact her at the refuge first.

=20

The question was raised about obtaining land management permission for
virtual caches (the question of whether we can obtain permission for =
virtual
caches from The Powers What Am at geoaching.com is a separate issue and
irrelevant to this discussion). There are several perspectives on this =
from
the land management side, but my sense of the consensus was that if the
virtual is located in a maintained public place that permission would =
not be
necessary, but if the site is off trail or similar than permission =
should be
requested (although personally I still wouldn't attempt to place a =
virtual
at the Deer Valley Rock Art Center).=20

=20

Finally, we decided to try something new when we next have a meeting =
such as
this. Since the next best thing we can do (other than getting permission =
for
caches) is to spread the gospel of Responsible Geocaching and educate =
new
cachers, we are going to set up the next meeting as an event cache, and
actively seek newer Geocachers as attendees. We will have a lot of =
details
to work out over the next several months, from content to whether we =
will
need to limit attendance, but as it comes together I'll keep you posted.
Don't be surprised if it's a year off, though.

=20

What pleases me most about the above idea (which came from Mary Estes) =
is
that it seems to indicate that most land managers no longer see =
Geocaching
as merely a threat against the lands they manage (a sardonic "thanks =
again"
to Christina Leonard of the "Republic" for originally provoking that
attitude), but rather as an activity that with some exceptions does have =
a
beneficial place on public lands.

=20

My heartfelt thanks to everyone who attended, cachers and land managers
alike.

=20

Steve

Team Tierra Buena

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Nice read Steve the only thing I am fuzzy on is what =
I call
you? :)

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

&#8220;Steve&#8221; usually gets my attention. =
J&nbsp; I did =
attend another
land management meeting back in January where I introduced myself as =
&#8220;an
unofficial, unelected representative of a nonexistent =
organization&#8221;.

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I still need to get back with P Liddy of the Mesa =
Ranger
District and talk about a cache for the </span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Bull</span></font><font =
size=3D2
 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> =
</span></font><font
  size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Dog</span></font><font
 size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><font
  size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Canyon</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>
area....thanks for the reminder </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I thought he was a rapper?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Steve</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Team Tierra Buena</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>

</div>

<div style=3D'font-color:black'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span=
></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:TeamTierraBuena@earthlink.net"
title=3D"TeamTierraBuena@earthlink.net">Team Tierra Buena</a> =
</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:az-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com"
title=3D"az-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com">Arizona Geocaching</a> =
</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:mestes@pr.state.az.us" =
title=3D"mestes@pr.state.az.us">Mary L. Estes</a>
</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> =
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Wednesday,
 October 01, 2003</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>3:00 PM</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> =
[Az-Geocaching]
Report from </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
  font-family:Arial'>Pueblo</span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Grande =
[Long]</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

Besides posting this on the
azgeocaching.com mailing list, I am copying Mary Estes, who heads up the =
Site
Steward program, and arranged and facilitated last night's meeting. I =
hope that
others who attended the meeting will also post their impressions and =
opinions,
particularly where they disagree with my views.

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

The Geocaching community =
was
represented by Marc and Julie (Tamo's Clan'Destiny), Brian (Team Snaptek =
and
azgeocaching.com), Christy and Joe (Pet Posse), Mark (Highway Havoc), =
Bob
Renner (Bob Renner), and me. (Did I forget anyone? My apologies if I =
did.
Lately my memory cells seem to be flaking off faster than my dandruff.) =
The
land management agencies represented included the State Historic =
Preservation
Office (which sponsors the Site Steward program), City of =
Phoenix, City of =
Scottsdale<fon=
t
size=3D2 face=3DArial>, Maricopa County, Bureau of
Land Management, Tonto National =
Forest, and the
Kofa National Wildlife Refuge outside of Yuma.

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

I think the atmosphere was =
very
different from the meeting that was held a year ago. I believe this is =
due to
the fact that the land managers recognize that most Geocachers want to =
practice
our recreation in a responsible fashion, and that we have done and =
continue to
do what we can as a &quot;virtual community&quot; to educate others in =
what our
responsibilities are. I would go so far as to say that every land =
management
representative in attendance recognizes the positives in an activity =
such as
Geocaching, and they are willing to support it insofar as it doesn't =
conflict
with the regulations of their respective agencies (and we have to =
remember that
every paid land management representative at that meeting gets their pay =
from
some government agency or other).

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

I've preached this before =
here, but
it was said repeatedly last night: The best thing we can do to prevent =
problems
is to obtain permission before placing a cache. That's not always the =
easiest
thing in the world to do, and everyone in attendance recognized that. =
The
issues range from trying to figure out which agency is responsible for =
the area
where you want to place the cache, to finding our what that agency's =
rules are,
to finding someone who actually knows what you're talking about and can =
help
you. But it's worth the effort.

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

Everyone also seems to be =
aware that
not every Geocacher in Arizona subscribes to this mailing list, or is =
even
aware that azgeocaching.com exists, and that people, particularly =
newcomers,
may go off more in ignorance than anything else and do something that =
they
shouldn't. I think it is up to us to do what we can to let new cachers =
know
about resources such as this mailing list and web site. Brian stated =
that he
would be updating the links on the web site to reflect some of the new
Geocaching policies we have received (and I'll get you the BLM policy =
tomorrow,
Brian). And we hope to be able to put together a starter list of =
permission
contacts for those agencies where we have them.

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

This seems like a good time =
to
remind everyone of what we came up with after last year's meeting, which =
got
dubbed &quot;Geo-mentoring&quot;. If you own a cache, and get a log =
entry from
someone who is relatively new (based on their find count), why not drop =
them a
note welcoming them to Geocaching and letting them know about =
azgeocaching.com
and the listserv? If anyone would like a copy of the boilerplate I use =
for
this, drop me an email.

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

Random notes: The Phoenix =
Preserve
sounds as though they are going to be enforcing their &quot;no =
off-trail&quot;
policy more strictly. I don't have my copy of the policy with me here, =
but
everyone who attended got a copy, so I hope someone will post it in =
short
order.

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

Tonto National Forest =
continues to
welcome Geocaching, except in designated wilderness areas and anywhere =
that
would threaten an archaeological site. It is for the latter reason that =
they
&quot;suggest but do not require&quot; that you contact the appropriate
District Office before you place a cache within Tonto.

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

One item that saddened me a =
little
was that Maricopa County Parks and Recreation announced that they are =
going to
be updating their Geocaching policy and eliminate the &quot;two-mile
rule&quot;. But since they want permission from the Park Supervisor for =
any
caches placed within their parks, I think it might still be possible to =
work
with them if you have a good location that's far enough back from the =
trailhead
and not too far (whatever that means) off the trail. It was nice to hear =
that
the Pet Posse are working with the county staff to see if they might be =
able to
implement a reduced &quot;geocaching-only entrance fee&quot;. =

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

Kofa NWR has some concerns =
about
some specific caches already placed within the Refuge, but Susana Henry, =
the
representative from Kofa, told me she would look into them individually
herself. Again, she does not appear to be opposed to caches within the =
Refuge,
so I would advise anyone planning on placing a cache down there to =
contact her
at the refuge first.

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

The question was raised =
about
obtaining land management permission for virtual caches (the question of
whether we can obtain permission for virtual caches from The Powers What =
Am at
geoaching.com is a separate issue and irrelevant to this discussion). =
There are
several perspectives on this from the land management side, but my sense =
of the
consensus was that if the virtual is located in a maintained public =
place that
permission would not be necessary, but if the site is off trail or =
similar than
permission should be requested (although personally I still wouldn't =
attempt to
place a virtual at the Deer Valley Rock Art Center).

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

Finally, we decided to try =
something
new when we next have a meeting such as this. Since the next best thing =
we can
do (other than getting permission for caches) is to spread the gospel of
Responsible Geocaching and educate new cachers, we are going to set up =
the next
meeting as an event cache, and actively seek newer Geocachers as =
attendees. We
will have a lot of details to work out over the next several months, =
from
content to whether we will need to limit attendance, but as it comes =
together
I'll keep you posted. Don't be surprised if it's a year off, =
though.

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>What pleases me most about =
the above
idea (which came from Mary Estes) is that it seems to indicate that most =
land
managers no longer see Geocaching as merely a threat against the lands =
they
manage (a sardonic &quot;thanks again&quot; to Christina Leonard of the
&quot;Republic&quot; for originally provoking that attitude), but rather =
as an
activity that with some exceptions does have a beneficial place on =
public
lands.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>My heartfelt thanks to =
everyone who
attended, cachers and land managers alike.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Steve</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Team Tierra =
Buena</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

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