[Az-Geocaching] Logging a find

Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:52:38 -0700

I might be in the minority, I know one reason and I am not sure if I agree.
I saw a log on Diablo point that stated there was a snake on top of the pile
of rocks, personally I would cause that snake to move, and then log it, but
that I think is a good reason.  The reason that people are in the area is
what adds to the difficulty of the cache.  I have place a few in locations
of high traffic area, and the reason of the rating was not so that people
can guess where it might be, but to wait to grab it, when nobody is around
that is the challenge.  I don't believe there is any reason not to log it,
if you can't log it as a note and return to make the actual find.

That's my two peso's worth

Denny from Tres Hombres
 -----Original Message-----
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Subject:	Az-Geocaching digest, Vol 1 #487 - 12 msgs

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Today's Topics:

   1. One exception to "signing the log" rule (Mike Schwarz)
   2. Re: Az-Geocaching digest, Vol 1 #486 - 6 msgs (Karl Smith)
   3. RE: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Team Tierra Buena)
   4. Re: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Eric Quinn)
   5. Re: One exception to "signing the log" rule (SNOW6006@aol.com)
   6. RE: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Scott Nicol)
   7. Re: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Jeakell@aol.com)
   8. RE: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Baja Fleg)
   9. Re: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Jason Poulter)
  10. Re: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Brian Cluff)
  11. newbie (Arvin)
  12. RE: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Scott Nicol)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:06:33
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
From: Mike Schwarz <malthusian@mindspring.com>
Subject: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

I do think it is essential to sign the log book/sheet at the cache
location, with one exception:
It is VERY important that a non-cacher does not see you retrieving
or replacing the cache.  If they do, it's quite possible the end
result is they could walk off with the cache, and all its contents,
including any travel bugs, are history.  We have quite a number of
archived caches in Arizona, and it's always best to minimize the
chance that a cache will be stolen.

For some of the urban caches in city parks, people may be having a
picnic nearby, sitting on a bench nearby, etc., etc.  I feel that
if other people nearby would probably witness your act of retrieving
or replacing the cache that you've located, and it appears that they
will be there for awhile, it is okay, and in fact much preferred,
that you do NOT retrieve the cache and sign in, and go ahead and log
this as a find out on the web.  In this situation, the importance of
not having the cache "liberated" overrides the importance of signing
in to the physical logbook.

Of course, if the non-cachers nearby appear like they might be gone
soon, or are just walking by, you should just wait a few minutes
until the area clears, then retrieve the cache and sign the log.
However, if it looks like those people may be there for a long time,
NOT retrieving the cache, and logging a find on the web, is then
okay.  Some may say you should wait until the area clears and then
pull the cache out, but most of us don't have time to sit around idle
for 1 hour, 2 hours, or longer, waiting for nearby people to leave.
It's a judgement call on your part.  I would say if people appear
like they will be in the immediate area of the cache for 10 minutes
or longer, then leave the cache be, and log it on the web as a find.

Taekwondoman also had this attitude, and did this with several caches,
and I know of at least one other cacher (with well over 100 finds),
who posts here periodically, who has done this too.  For myself, I
only had to do this once (out of 110 physical caches I've found).
I didn't retrieve Secret Garden for this reason, a dozen people may
have seen me pull it out of its hiding spot, which I could see a few
feet away.  The irony of this was, after this cache had a few more
finds in April, it disappeared, and since Dobre emailed me that he
was "very busy", I took a replacement container down there myself
several weeks later, when the garden was empty.

Other than this one situation, I think you should always sign the
physical logbook/sheet in order to log the cache as a find on the
web, unless there is no logbook in the cache.  I found this last
situation with Sacagewea's Retreat in Mund's Park.  Fortunately,
I had an extra logbook with me, so I signed it and left it in
that cache.  But the majority of cachers don't carry spare logbooks
with them, so needless to say, it would have been impossible to
sign a physical logbook if it ain't there.

Mike
Team Malthusian

At 08:14:18 -0700 7/1/02, Steve wrote:
>
>Karl,
>
>> IMO, I don't think they
>> should count as a 'real' find, but at least they make me feel like I
>> accomplished something.
>>
>> What you do you guys/gals think?
>
>This guy thinks you're right on both counts.
>
>To me, the essence of a find is signing the log (or in the case of a
>virtual, finding the required information). I can think of several
>caches where I have been within inches of them, and have been unable to
>find the cache. I know I have been within inches, because I have gone
>back and found them on the subsequent attempts.
>
>There aren't a lot of rules in what we do, but signing the log is one of
>them. "Close" only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and Geodashing
>(which counts a find if you get within 100 meters, or something like
>that).
>
>Steve
>Team Tierra Buena
>
>

--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:49:32 -0700
From: "Karl Smith" <threadhead@mac.com>
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Re: Az-Geocaching digest, Vol 1 #486 - 6 msgs
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

Team Tierra Buena,
> This guy thinks you're right on both counts.

At least you feel my pain ;)

My plan it to go ahead and log them as 'post a note' and post a picture to
show that we gave it the 'old college try'. I think posting them as
'couldn't find it' isn't quite the best description.

Brian,
> In other words, you would probably need a couple thousand dollar lens
> for your camera, something along the lines of what you see on the side
> lines of sporting events :)

I have a friend who would be happy to loan me his 600mm lens... nah, if I
broke it I would have to mortgage the house and throw in a couple children
to pay him back.

Praying for rain,
Karl
Silent Yellow Dog Team

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Message: 3
From: "Team Tierra Buena" <teamtierrabuena@earthlink.net>
To: <listserv@azgeocaching.com>
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:19:58 -0700
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

> I do think it is essential to sign the log book/sheet at the
> cache location, with one exception: It is VERY important that
> a non-cacher does not see you retrieving or replacing the
> cache.

Ensuring that a cache and your activities are not detected by civilians
must be among a cacher's highest priorities. But I respectfully disagree
with Mike that this situation is an exception to "finding = logging".

Particularly with urban caches, retrieving, logging, and replacing
without arousing suspicions among the Muggles is part of the challenge.
If the presence of others prevents you from getting to the cache, how do
you know you would have found it if you *had* gotten to it? It's not a
great leap of logic to go from "I was in the area and couldn't get to
it, but I'll count it" to "I was in the area and I couldn't see it, but
I'll count it".

We once had someone log a find on one of our caches. The online entry
read something like, "There were a lot of people around, so I eyeballed
the cache area." I emailed him and asked him to change his log entry to
a note and explained why I thought it shouldn't count. He did change it,
and later went back and actually found it. But not all cache owners
would do this. As I said in my original message on this thread, there
aren't a lot of rules to this game. If you're comfortable with Mike's
exception, invoke it when you need it and log it as a find. If it's one
of ours, though, you'll probably hear from us about it.

One last point: Karl, I do "feel your pain". Our team has felt it
firsthand on several occasions. And I don't personally have a problem
with posting notes in these circumstances. But IMO, they ain't Finds.

Steve
Team Tierra Buena

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:27:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eric Quinn <halthron@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

--- Mike Schwarz <malthusian@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I do think it is essential to sign the log
> book/sheet at the cache
> location, with one exception:
> It is VERY important that a non-cacher does not see
> you retrieving
> or replacing the cache.

I've done this once myself and I debated if I should
count it as a log. Since there was nothing preventing
me from retrieving the cache beyond the fact that
others nearby would see me do so, I logged it as a
find.

I agree with Brian that you have to be able to see it
(feel it?), at a minimum, before being able to count
it. I'd be kind of suprised if caches near Flag could
be seen from 100 yards away.

Eric
Team Dragon

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Message: 5
From: SNOW6006@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:15:52 EDT
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

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I think I now know the reason that we don't have 100 cache finds yet ...
because if we can't sign the log book, we don't count it as a find.  On
several caches, we came back another day because we couldn't retrieve it
without being seen.  If we are not able to go back, then we don't count it.
Too us, "sleuthing" is all part of the fun of geocaching. (Sometimes I feel
like we are undercover spy's.)

We have had one exception to that rule.  We could see the cache, but could
not reach it because my husband and I are short and the cache was placed in
a
very high location.

But the fun of geocaching is that there are few hard and fast rules and you
can't get kicked out of the club (ha ha)!

And it is too bad that the owners of the caches in Flagstaff had not
temporarily disabled them so that geocachers don't end up on wild-goose
chases.

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<HTML>I think I now know the reason that we don't have 100
cache finds yet ... because if we can't sign the log book, we don't count it
as a find.&nbsp; On several caches, we came back another day because we
couldn't retrieve it without being seen.&nbsp; If we are not able to go
back, then we don't count it. Too us, "sleuthing" is all part of the fun of
geocaching. (Sometimes I feel like we are undercover spy's.)&nbsp; 
 
We have had one exception to that rule.&nbsp; We could see the cache, but
could not reach it because my husband and I are short and the cache was
placed in a very high location. 
 
But the fun of geocaching is that there are few hard and fast rules and you
can't get kicked out of the club (ha ha)! 
 
And it is too bad that the owners of the caches in Flagstaff had not
temporarily disabled them so that geocachers don't end up on wild-goose
chases.</HTML>

--part1_156.1031de74.2a5266d8_boundary--

--__--__--

Message: 6
From: "Scott Nicol" <arizcowboy@hotmail.com>
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:00:21 -0700
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

I very much agree with Steve (Tierra Buena) on the subject of logging a
find. No log... no find. That is how I do it anyways. Part of the fun of
geocaching (and the challenge) is getting to the cache and logging it. I
personally would not feel like I accomplished anything if I didn't sign the
logbook. The feeling of accomplishment would be lost. Especially on urban
caches. I found 14 caches today. I could have had probably 16 or 17.
However, one cache (I cant think of the name of it off hand; in a park near
Union Hills west of Cave Creek) I found myself sitting for probably a half
an hour or more waiting for some park workers to move. They were just
sitting there right in the area I was to search for the coords for the
second part of that multi-cache. I finally left and went for a couple others
and returned a couple hours later. They were still there! Just sitting there
in the shade! Geez! Look where our tax dollars is going! I waited again for
another half hour or so before finally calling it quits on that one and
heading off to another cache. I could never consider that a 'find'! I never
saw it. Never had the chance though! I also wasnt going to walk on over and
start searching in front of them!

I have had situations where I laid eyes on a micro cache but could not
retrieve it and again had to come back another time. To me that is not a
find if I could not log into it. Even if that cache is 100 miles from my
house. That is all part of the challenge.

I have had many, many, many situations were I didnt get to the cache due to
too many people in the area. I simply went back another day or another time
and found it and logged it.

Everyone plays the game a bit differently. This is just how Team
Ropingthewind does it!

Scott
Team Ropingthewind

Team Ropingthewind's web page:
http://www.safwp.bravepages.com/geocaching.html

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Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Jeakell@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 00:03:03 EDT
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

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I agree that to log a find, the team needs to actually locate the cache and
enter a log in the cache.  Part of the challenge is sometimes having good
timing when finding the cache and discretion is always important.  Many
urban
caches are difficult because they are camouflaged.  Just being near the
cache
is not sufficient.  I know we don't have any "rules" to our sport, but I
vote
for keeping some integrity and consistency in the game.
Kelly - "roadrunners"

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2>I agree that to log a find, the
team needs to actually locate the cache and enter a log in the cache.&nbsp;
Part of the challenge is sometimes having good timing when finding the cache
and discretion is always important.&nbsp; Many urban caches are difficult
because they are camouflaged.&nbsp; Just being near the cache is not
sufficient.&nbsp; I know we don't have any "rules" to our sport, but I vote
for keeping some integrity and consistency in the
game.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
Kelly - "roadrunners"</FONT></HTML>

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--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Baja Fleg" <fleigle@hotmail.com>
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:12:56 -0600
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

Hey Scott what if someone logs a find on a cache that you own but they say
for whatever reason that they didn't make a log in the log book.  What do
you do??
Yeah, on one of my caches that we own that did happen.

Michael
Team TJ

----Original Message Follows----
I very much agree with Steve (Tierra Buena) on the subject of logging a
find. No log... no find. That is how I do it anyways. Part of the fun of
geocaching (and the challenge) is getting to the cache and logging it. I
personally would not feel like I accomplished anything if I didn't sign the
logbook. The feeling of accomplishment would be lost. Especially on urban
caches. I found 14 caches today. I could have had probably 16 or 17.
However, one cache (I cant think of the name of it off hand; in a park near
Union Hills west of Cave Creek) I found myself sitting for probably a half
an hour or more waiting for some park workers to move. They were just
sitting there right in the area I was to search for the coords for the
second part of that multi-cache. I finally left and went for a couple others
and returned a couple hours later. They were still there! Just sitting there
in the shade! Geez! Look where our tax dollars is going! I waited again for
another half hour or so before finally calling it quits on that one and
heading off to another cache. I could never consider that a 'find'! I never
saw it. Never had the chance though! I also wasnt going to walk on over and
start searching in front of them!

I have had situations where I laid eyes on a micro cache but could not
retrieve it and again had to come back another time. To me that is not a
find if I could not log into it. Even if that cache is 100 miles from my
house. That is all part of the challenge.

I have had many, many, many situations were I didnt get to the cache due to
too many people in the area. I simply went back another day or another time
and found it and logged it.

Everyone plays the game a bit differently. This is just how Team
Ropingthewind does it!

Scott
Team Ropingthewind

Team Ropingthewind's web page:
http://www.safwp.bravepages.com/geocaching.html

_________________________________________________________________
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:44:03 -0700
From: Jason Poulter <polt@snaptek.com>
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

Do not try and find the cache. That's impossible. Instead... only try to
realize the truth.

There is a cache.

Then you'll see, that it is not the cache that finds, it is only yourself.

jason

--__--__--

Message: 10
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
From: Brian Cluff <brian@snaptek.com>
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Date: 02 Jul 2002 08:16:35 -0700
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

D'oh, you blew it on your twisted Matrix quote :)

Brian Cluff
Team Snaptek

On Mon, 2002-07-01 at 22:44, Jason Poulter wrote:
> Do not try and find the cache. That's impossible. Instead... only try to
> realize the truth.
>
> There is a cache.
>
> Then you'll see, that it is not the cache that finds, it is only yourself.
>
> jason
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Az-Geocaching mailing list
> listserv@azgeocaching.com
> http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching
>
> Arizona's Geocaching Resource
> http://www.azgeocaching.com

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Message: 11
From: "Arvin" <adub@cybertrails.com>
To: <az-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:03:11 -0700
Subject: [Az-Geocaching] newbie
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

Hi all.
Have been wanting to try cache hunting for a couple of years. Bought a cheep
gps a few months ago. But the forest is now closed so will wait till fall to
look around here.(Payson)

Heading to Zion Nat. Park this Wednesday.  Anyone have an interesting cache
I should visit there or on the way?

Seeya
adub

--__--__--

Message: 12
From: "Scott Nicol" <arizcowboy@hotmail.com>
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 09:34:02 -0700
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

>From: "Baja Fleg" <fleigle@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
>To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
>Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule
>Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:12:56 -0600
>
>Hey Scott what if someone logs a find on a cache that you own but they say
>for whatever reason that they didn't make a log in the log book.  What do
>you do??
>Yeah, on one of my caches that we own that did happen.
>
>Michael
>Team TJ

Howdy Michael,

First, my question to you: what did you do when that situation came up? Did
you allow the log entry to stand? If someone logs a find on one of my caches
and states they only saw it and never really got to it and logged their
visit... I would ask them to change their find log to a note until they can
get back there to log in or have their log deleted. No log... no find. Of
course, that is how I would do it. It is up to the individual cache owner to
decide what rules (if any) there will be. I will state in my cache
description a log entry must be made, just so the cacher knows that up
front.

I beleive that by reading all the posts on this recent subject... that the
large majority agree that a log should be made in the logbook to count as a
find. As the Roadrunners said... we need to maintain some integrity to this
hobby. If everyone started logging finds that said they saw it and never
logged in and the cache owner goes to retreive the cache log after say a
year and finds not a single log in it... that wouldnt be any fun, would it?

I have had several situations where I almost could not log into a cache,
even though I saw it. However, we always prevailed and got to the cache.
Urban caches this has happened often. I just be patient and wait for the
right moment to grab the cache or I just come back another time to get to
it.

I have spoken my .02cents on this thread and will speak no more! This is
just my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own.

On the subject of hiding our first cache:

We havent hid our first cache yet (we are trying to break Sand Dollars
record for the most cache finds before placing one! - really bad cache
karma!)... Of course, if someone did do that (no log in the logbook)... I
guarantee they are not going to want to go all the way back to it again to
log in! ;) heheheehehehehhehehhe

We do have our first cache in my posession! Yes, it is an ammo box. There is
your only hint yall are gonna get! :)  We have a special place we want to
put our very first cache and it is not accessible right now until the land
closures are lifted. We have several other places we want to put one
including an urban cache. However, we want this first one to be special and
just cant place it right now.

I would like to place our first cache hide by balloon. However, we would
probably end up waiting a long time to accomplish that were we want to put
it! When we go out on adventure flights, that ammo box is coming with me and
if I find that perfect spot... I might just land and drop it off!

Scott
Team Ropingthewind

Scotts Adventure Flying Web Page (and now geocaching web page!)
http://www.safwp.bravepages.com

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End of Az-Geocaching Digest