I agree pretty closely with RTW's conclusions about ATVs on Arizona's public land. The amount of new trails in the area east of Florence has multiplied exponentially. It's unrecognizable compared to what it was 15 years ago. If I hadn't spent time there then, I wouldn't believe it could've changed so much in such a short period of time. The ATV track growth is happening statewide, and surely all across the West. Traditional 4WD vehicles cause damage too, of course. But they do not tend to create new roads. They generally stay on existing roads. That is the key here, I think. It's not that traditional 4WD users are more environmentally aware as a whole, but rather, new road-building on that scale is a lot of work. It's easier to stick to existing roads. ATVs, though, can squeeze easily between most Sonoran Desert vegetation, and they do, creating new tracks in the process. I am almost always wary of government intervention which restricts recreational use on public lands, but ATV use is very destructive when left unrestricted. It also negatively affects almost all other land users, recreational or not, human or not. Not just the tracks and passageways, but also the incessant noise which radiates for miles around from the activity. Obviously, ATVing is a very popular activity in Arizona with explosive growth. It has a place on our public lands (many places). But it doesn't have to be everywhere. We don't have that much roadless desert left and these scars on the land won't heal in our lifetimes. So in this case, the government restriction sounds better than the alternative of the status quo to me. Public lands access is not being blocked with this proposal, as has been suggested. Closure of vehicular trails does not block your access to public land. If you don't believe it, try walking. _____ From: az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com [mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of AZcachemeister Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 6:23 PM To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] FW: Arizona Game and Fish wants to hear from ou I definitely agree with Scott and Brian here. There are most certainly boneheads in all classes of OHV drivers, but I have to think the guy spending $10-20-30K+ on his decked out 4WD (interesting, the 4 and $ use the same key) will probably be a bit more considerate than the guy who only spent $500 on a whim. As far as the Copper Sticker goes, I will more than gladly pony up my $20 if it can provide better patrolling to remove the jerques from the area. Brian Casteel wrote: I tend to agree. I'm a member of one of the 4x4 clubs in town, and we all follow a tread lightly philosophy. Environmental groups looking for a + in the 'designated wilderness' use ATV tracks as their prime examples, but lump motorcycles, snowmobiles and full-size 4x4s into the category of destructive users. We've even found that some of the propaganda pictures aren't even of the area they're trying to get shut down. That said, there isn't a single category of absolute innocents, but in my experience it is primarily ATV riders that tear up the terrain and create most of the spider trails. One of the most beautiful areas I've ever had the opportunity to wheel into was the Independence Mine area south of Big Timber, MT. But on the drive to the wilderness area boundary, we passed through an area where I counted no less than FIFTEEN spider trails the width of a quad in the same general area. These trails were paralleling the main trail through the landscape. We watched (and filmed) a group of guys blow past us and tear across the terrain with absolute disregard. Despite ripping them a new hole, they still did it, apparently invincible because they were all wearing revolvers on their hips (our vehicles and persons were equipped enough to fight as a small army, but that's beside the point). Most often times, it isn't the riders on the true trail ATVs, but the Predator style rides driven by hotshots with something to prove to the masculinity of the world. Take Bulldog Canyon for example, which has its fair share of...incidents. One day I was going for a few caches, and a couple people were in a gully shooting illegally. I called a Ranger and they showed up to ruin this guy's day by taking his guns and handing a substantial ticket to the tune of I believe $5000. While talking to the officer afterwards, we talked about wheelin' in the canyon area, and he was telling me about how 5 or 6 times during every summer, they land a helicopter to haul some moron off to get fixed, because they went head-on into a full size vehicle on a blind turn. How did this happen, you ask? The full-size vehicles have always been doing <15mph to the 40+mph the ATV is doing. They hotrod around corners and can't hear the other vehicle coming because of the high-RPM engine noise. The unintended result is that the full-size driver has an unwanted passenger via the front windshield. When our club goes on rides, at no time are we doing >10mph unless it's a flat road and we are in 2WD. The rest of the time it's 4HI or 4LO and we're literally crawling along at only around 3-5mph. The argument is that the full-size vehicles have so much more power and can therefore be more destructive. This is true in one way, but not in practical applications (most of the time). My vehicle has more power than the average ATV. It has more power to crawl over obstacles at lower speeds, requiring minimal wheel spin to do so. You take an ATV that doesn't have the luxury of 2500lbs of additional weight, and it takes significant wheel spin to overcome that same obstacle, or they'll simply go around on a spider trail. It also seems that either the ATVs I see causing this destruction either don't have 4WD or the rider chooses to not use it "because they can". Some of the spider trails I've seen were created in areas where the original 2-track was a little bumpy. If it's an ATV people, why the he|| are you looking for the mall crawler way around? While unfair in some ways to the motorcycle/ATV enthusiasts, overall they need to better police themselves and not just shake heads when some moron tears across the land on a trail that's being created as they ride. We wheel by example, but there just seems to be too many who choose to ignore that example, and few of them are on anything but ATVs. Some of it is just lack of education on the proper way to recreate on public lands, while some of it is simple common sense. Others yet are just defiant and don't care until they wind up in a halo. Even then, it sometimes isn't enough. Brian Team A.I. -----Original Message----- From: az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com [mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of Roping The Wind Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 10:38 AM To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] FW: Arizona Game and Fish wants to hear from ou From: Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] FW: Arizona Game and Fish wants to hear from ou Date: 20 Nov 2006 09:07:50 -0700 Licensed vehicles will not be required to have the sticker according to the discussion @ virtual jeep. (disclaimer: this might be a bit controversial.... call it what you want, but this is what I have seen and witnessed, so I can say it 'matter of factly') That is how I understand it. Only UNREGISTERED vehicles have to have this permit. That would be ATC's and ATV's and Motorcycles that are generally trailered to their starting points (and of course rockcrawlers and jeeps that are not driven on the roadways). I knew something like this would eventually happen. The website says something like 'due to the recent heavy growth of off road activities". In my opinion, that huge growth of off road driving is all ATV's and cycles. In my opinion, they are the ones that do the most damage to the environment. Of course, there are good people and bad apples in every group.... but in general, from what I have seen over the past 15 years that I have really been paying attention to this stuff... jeeps (and similar vehicles) tend to 'tread lightly'. They usually can be seen just crawling along. Not kicking up a lot of dust (which is another huge issue with the local government agencies) and not tearing up the desert. The ATVs/quads and cycles are usually the ones racing across the desert, kicking up tons of dust and creating new trails. The area of desert SE of Apache Junction is a PRIME example. That whole area (south of US 60/West of State Route 79) and east of the CAP canal) has a good number of trails out there. They used to be all 2 track 'jeep' type trails. Lots of pinstriping along the way! Over the past few years, those 2 track trails have become very wide and sandy. The amount of vegetation along these roads/trails have become very sparse. Why have these trails become so much wider? Why cant the riders stay on the original two tire tracks that used to be the trail? Then after heavy rains, the 'mudders' have to come along and tear the trails up farther by creating huge ruts (this is the reason the forest service closes its roads in the winter). Then, the ATV's and Quads come back in and have to ride around the mud hole full of ruts and thus create a new trail... thinning the vegetation and eventually widening the trail (this is called 'no respect for the land'). This is what is happening and in my opinion is very damaging to the environment. I dont like it one bit and I think the state needs to put a MUCH tighter rein on these ATV's and motorcycles. I know there might be a few on here that rides cycles and quads and I know there are some of them that are very respectful of the land, but in general... these types of vehicles are doing the most damage... due to their popularity. Just my opinion. But I think alot of the Jeep guys will agree with me on this. I have witnessed this first hand as I spend alot of time over this area of desert. and.. no... I dont own a Jeep and I am not a hardcore 4 wheeler. So my opinions are not biased. It's just that I have personally never seen a jeep racing across this area of desert, spewing a ton of dust in the air and tearing up the desert. The most lack of respect for the land, that I have personally seen, is coming from the ATV/quad and cycles sector. Again, I am sure there are alot of very respectful riders out there... but as I said before, due to the popularity of these vehicles, there are more bad apples in this group now then there was before. This area of desert has become what is known as an OHV area (off highway vehicle). It is a place that these types of vehicles can be ridden. I think with the popularity of them, the state couldnt really 'put a rein' on them, so they just made the area an OHV area (just like the Rolls near Saguaro Lake). Its a shame, because that desert used to be very green and pristine. What is very disspointing to see is that the quads and cycles are now starting to migrate north of the highway and outside the designated OHV area. Scott Team RTW _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spa ces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk ____________________________________________________________ Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit: http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona's Geocaching Resource http://www.azgeocaching.com DISCLAIMER: This message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are notified that the dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. 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