Ultimately, I think the problem is going to be that everyone won't be happy until Geocaching happens the way we each as individuals believe it should. Caching has only been around for 4.5 years, and already there is discussion of ceding from the Union (sort of). There are some who appreciate 1/1 urban micros, and there are other who despise them. On the flipside, there are some of us who hate RTW-style caches, due to the evil nature of them (sorry Scott), and there are some of us who live for them. Even if nobody cached there wouldn't be any sort of happy medium, because someone would complain that nobody is caching. Groundspeak is not imposing a Patriot Act on caching, but rather responding to growing concerns before they get out of hand.in other words, proactively. Where do we think caching would be if it were left unchecked, where there were no rules to keep it a good experience for all? Not just those who are caching, but those who are responsible for the areas we cache in? No rules at all would IMHO signal the imminent death of caching in a very real sense. I enjoy it immensely, and have yet to have a *real* problem with the rules as they are. The effort to become an independent nation in Geocaching should be re-directed into gaining support for it by the various governmental bodies who could make, or break it for all of us. Brian Team A.I. _____ From: az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com [mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of Gale Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 4:17 PM To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Mo' bettah caches! I did not mean to imply that all in the light pole etc caches were lame. There are a couple of series that are rather humorous and fun (My favorite drinking hole, welcome to (a town) and my kind of cache come to mind). I was refering to someone who just stuck one in a bush in a well landscaped fragment of a home development that will disappear after only a few tries once the landscapers return for their weekly cutting and clean up.....and those caches that are not clever or pretty, or interesting in the least but are stuck under a trashcan. A cache that is a 1/1 is not lame by definition. I do not want to discourage anyone from placing caches. I learned fast when I placed my first caches. Some were rather lame. It would be nice tho to try and encourage improvement of caches if we can. For the record, I love urban micros. Often we like to get easy ones, to make up for the nuisance of the dnf's on tougher caches. Sometimes we like easy ones just because we want an easy casual day of caching. Here is a list of good urban easy caches I give out to new cachers or those who are visiting the valley. (With a couple of harder ones on the list.) There are many more we enjoyed that are not on this list. I guess what Im saying in an overly long winded way is.....I would like to see cache quality improve so that the majority of caches that come online are a nice variety of difficulty, terrain, and fun. Perhaps part of the reason they havent been as exciting lately is that many cachers are discouraged from placing caches any more with recent interactions with gc.com. I know I have been feeling like that myself. Or maybe it is just gas prices keeping people from setting caches. Thanks for letting me rant. Wogun1 wrote: Warning! Newby speaking. (Sort of: 6 months caching, 199 found) I can see that for some of you who have been around a while and/or have high numbers of caches, the lame urban "been there, done that" caches could get to be a nuisance. Seeking mo'bettah, mo'interestin', mo'challengin' caches is normal. But, I have to tell you, I learned to do this sport--hobby--activity turned obsession-- on those easy urban hides. We had a GPS for two years before we started caching and had used it only to keep from getting lost on long Colorado trails. To actually use it to find a set of coordinates which lead to a light pole in a parking lot was a new experience. I can still remember shaking my head in disbelief the first time we drove all the way across town to look under a mail box and find an altoids container! I was thrilled! Same for light pole caches! Two weeks ago we took one of our friend's who was here visiting from Wisconsin, to a nearby convenience store which happened to have a cache. She had never heard of geocaching and had never seen a cache of any kind. When we nabbed the quick find, she was in awe. Talked about it for days: "Where else can we go? Where else are they hidden? Is there one there? Or there?" Sooo, I think the lame ones have their place. Sure no one wants it to get out of hand, but I am not sure what criteria would be used to determine what is enough,you know? If we had tried to find one of graldich's evil canal mini-micros first time out with our friend, she would have thought we were nuts. Why would anyone in their right mind put themselves through that on a regular basis? :-) Personally, I love the big ammo cans in the mountain hides, but let's face it, I can't hike enough everyday to feed this addiction. We consider ourselves to be "serious cachers" (it has taken over our lives in fact) but maybe we are still just learning and not ready for the big leagues. We still love to find them all: easy, hard, creative, no brainers, it doesn't matter. Once we reach # 500 we will rethink! Terry of wogunhiker _____ From: az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com [mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of Gale Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 7:05 PM To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Mo' bettah caches! Actually, for virtuals and locationless (since they are cacha non grata at gc.com) a friend of mine has a server, and for not too much money per year, I can have a website to set up and log such types of caches. I toyed with that idea for awhile. I love those kinds of caches too. I was also thinking of adding historical markers on it. For those at gc.com who are listening, I was in no way shape or form wanting to draw away from gc.com, only wanting to give people (and me) some things we want that gc.com doesnt provide for any more. Gale wrote: Yes I would like to see higher quality caches. We have a lot of good caches, and a lot of "here's a bush, here's a trash can, here's a light fixture" in a non descript area, hidden just because they can be hidden. It would be better to have more local control, since one size fits all rules dont really work as well. What applies in one part of the world/US doesnt necessarily apply here. But........would having it seperate from geocaching.com really work? Will we lose cachers in Arizona? GC.com would come up readily in a search, but would azgc.com? Can azgc.com handle the load? More importantly, would they want to? Oy the headaches! TEAM 360 wrote: Quality of caches would improve DRAMATICALLY if 3 out of 5 reviewers had to give it a "yes" vote before it got listed....Wouldn't you rather see QUALITY caches here in Arizona, rather than the current onslaught of behind-the-WalMart-dumpster-soggy-logsheet micro caches? Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so: "Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges -- "Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!" Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ____________________________________________________________ Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit: http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona's Geocaching Resource http://www.azgeocaching.com Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so: "Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges -- "Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!" Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ____________________________________________________________ Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit: http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona's Geocaching Resource http://www.azgeocaching.com Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so: "Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges -- "Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!" Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898 _____ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web