Scott.......I couldn't have said it any better. I've gotten to the point where if the cache is on playground equipment, next to the front door of a restaurant, or at a busy intersection, I'm not going to try and be stealthy, or won't even try for the cache at all. There's plenty of places to hide a cache, that are secure, yet still require some discretion. I'm interested to see what other cachers have to say about this....... ----- Original Message ----- From: Roping The Wind Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 1:43 PM To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Food for Thought Ok, this discussion is actually getting just a tad bit sidetracked from what I intended. I am not necessarily saying that caches shouldnt be placed in urban areas. What I am getting at is this: I have noticed ALOT of caches in my local area (east valley primarily) that got archived before I had a chance to get to it. Sometimes they lasted a few days, sometimes a couple weeks or maybe a month at most. In the description of many of these caches, the cache owner put in... "please be discrete and use stealth as there are alot of people around"... or something to that extent. Then, the cache shows up missing a week after it was placed. I mean, a cacher can only use so much 'stealth'. I mean, you cant be invisible!!! Sometimes, just your presence in a given location is enough to make people look over at you and wonder what you are doing. (like security and police or nearby business owners, etc). For instance, scrutinizing a utility/electric box, etc. Invariably, someone is likely to give away the cache location simply by being there and searching for the cache. Or... maybe one cacher doesnt give the location away.. but a number of cachers visiting the same area in a short period of time (like when the cache has just become active and everyone is rushing to it for a first find) gives the location away. Then, the cache owner leaves a note saying something like "I am archiving this cache as it has come up missing".... Well, DUH!!!! :) Generally speaking, caches placed nowadays dont have a life expectancy that the older caches do (many of which are still active, over 3 years now). Although there are many exceptions to that statement. The reason, I beleive, is because there are alot more caches placed in urban areas these days (where high concentrations of people are). Seems like cache owners are trying to intentionally place caches in areas where there are a high concentration of people with the intent of adding a bit more challenge to the find. Then, the owner complains that a cacher wasnt stealthy enough and gave the location away or wonders why it came up missing in such a short time!!! Very recently, another cacher pointed out to me that many of the South Mountain caches are still active. He named off a bunch of really old south mountain area caches that I found well over 2 years ago... they are still there. South Mountain is a very busy park and there are many people in it at any given time of the day. Yet, many of these caches stand the test of time. In closing.... (aka... Jerry Springers final thoughts)... Yes, a cacher needs to use some degree of stealth and be a bit discrete so as not to give the cache location away. Even in a wilderness type setting, you never know when someone might be hiking by. Being discrete is part of the game of geoching.. to help preserve the cache for many future cachers to find. But, lets use some common sense here. If you stick your cache under a piece of playground equiptment in a normally crowded city park... and then state "please be discrete"..... you aren't being realistic!!! Scott Team RTW ____________________________________________________________ Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit: http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona's Geocaching Resource http://www.azgeocaching.com