I have to say I didn't like micros at first.  I didn't know why ANYONE would want to do anything other than 4WD after a cache!  The views were what I wanted to see when I reached a cache.  I wanted trails.  Some of the most interesting caches I have done recently have been micros though.  I guess it's all in the skill of the person doing the hide.  I don't like the magnet-under-a-newspaper-box as much, but there are a few that I think the hider actually had a really good idea with.
 
It's like Easter Egg hunting as a kid.  When you were young they were "hidden" on the ground spread out in the yard.  As you got tougher the hiders adjusted with you and their experience level at hiding increased to putting them in tree branches or whatever.  Now we're all like a group of kids with a wide range of ages.  There's caches hidden out there for all age groups.  My father-in-law couldn't find a 1/1.5 yesterday on his third trip out to find it, but then again it was his first cache.  I'm glad he has some easy ones.
 
I think maybe a user rating system on the caches might help people sort them out.  Next to the hider's diff/terr rating could be the finder's rating.  It could be based on experience level suggested and level of fun at finding the cache.  We already have a way to write a quick review to the hider on what we thought/suggest about the hide.  Maybe an average of ratings by users would be helpful, too.
 
I still like hiking after a cache a lot, but having some for a quick grab (or not so quick puzzle to work on with the family) is great to get my family interested and give me something to do when my wife takes me shopping!
 
Noah from Team J
 
----- Original Message -----
From: PATRICK FINLEY
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] RE: forwarded forum post about micro/urban caches

Another topic probably worthy of discussion. Does anybody out there believe somebody can search for and find every cache they have ever looked for? I don't think those cachers are fooling anybody, but themselves. I know everybody has probably made numerous trips to certain cache sites before finally finding it, but I know there are some cachers out there who have been to a cache site numerous times,and have never logged a no find or a note on the cache page. Why? As Rob said , this is a "game" and shouldn't be taken as having worldly consequences. I know we hate to be stumped on a hunt and will return numerous times to try and find the cache, but will admit defeat and applaud the hider for giving us a difficult search. I don't feel there is any "shame " in not being able to find the cache, although it can sure eat at you trying to figure out where it is. One such cache for us was Mini-Forest. After getting clues from AJ.JR, we still had a hard time finding it. Other teams seemed to walk up and find it immediately. Go figure. But that's what makes this game so much fun. If every cache was a quick find, it could get a little boring out there. We don't really care for urban micros that much, but graldrich, AJ.JR, Sprocket, and others have placed a few that we really had fun with. Taking a hike thru the desert in Spring to find an ammo box covered in rocks or stuffed in a crevice is a lot more enjoyable to us, than searching under a swing set or in a garbage can at Bashas, but that's just our opinion, and I'm sure not everybody agrees with us. I know we won't lose any sleep over it. Anyway, we would like to thank all the different geocachers who have placed caches out there, as we have really enjoyed getting to see different places and getting history lessons, that are a lot more fun to learn that reading a book in high school or college...........Flatiron and Mrs. Wrangler 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Delora McCalliste r
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 9:11 PM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] RE: forwarded forum post about micro/urban caches
 
Well, I (Rob from Team Red Dog) have been reading all of the posts which
seem to portray very opinionated views on what Geocaching "should" be all
about.I believe that the "game" should be about whatever each team finds
enjoyable or gratifying about it!!! I am sure that there are no two
teams that cache for the same reasons. There have been a lot of issues
addressed by some teams
who have been scrutinized for there cache placement ideas, or just cache
placements in general.
These criticisms have come come under the guise of perpetuating the sport of
Geocaching.
They have come from teams who have very high rankings in the AZGeocaching
standings.
Some of whom are stating that they are fed up with the urban micro's or
un-interesting localized
caches. "It's not about the numbers!" some have said. Ironically, they are
the top teams in Az.
"At least in the numbers game." And I don't see anyone questioning their
100% find ratios?
But, it isn't about the numbers for them, RIGHT?

Our team has tried our best to keep the upper-echelon entertained with
creative caches.
We ourselves find it most gratifying to achieve great reviews on our "Caches
Placed". For us,
this is what we find exciting about the game. Bringing different,
challenging, creative ideas "to
the table"... so to speak.We are most definately NOT the most experienced
team to play the game of Geocaching. However, I do feel that there is NO ONE
WAY TO PLAY THIS GAME !!!
As we have been reminded many times over ,in our earlier days.

  I would like to state that this is ONLY my OPINION. But I do find it
perplexing, that the number one team in AZ. is complaining about "NUMBERS" .
Especially having placed only 2 caches(Neither of which we have been abled
to retrieve , because of certain limitations)
We have tried to place interesting MICRO'S in rural, areas . But have come
to find that even in these settings, there will always be direct and
derogatory critiquing on hard to find micro's.
If micro-caches should never have been introduced to the game, than where
would teams like
GrAldrich, AzCachmeister,Randman,AJJR and ourselves have to go with our
"CREATIVITY"???
After all, there are over 500 teams in AZ.

How many ways can you hide an ammo can under a pile of rocks??????

Rob.... Team Red Dog




Peaceloveandgoodhappinessstuff,
Trust in God
~Namaste'






>From: "Delora McCallister" <delora@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
>To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
>Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] RE: forwarded forum post about micro/urban
>caches
>Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:49:23 -0700
>
>How eloquently put Bill
>~ Team RED DOG
>
>
>
>
>Peaceloveandgoodhappinessstuff,
>Trust in God
>~Namaste'
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: "EvilFISH" <EvilFish@cox.net>
>>Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
>>To: <listserv@azgeocaching.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] RE: forwarded forum post about micro/urban
>>caches
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 07:19:57 -0700
>>
>>let me add hiding a cache with the intent of it being found....
>>
>>
>>anyway
>>
>>back to work
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Bill Nolan
>>   To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
>>   Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 6:53 AM
>>   Subject: [Az-Geocaching] RE: forwarded forum post about micro/urban
>>caches
>>
>>
>>   Ah yes, another controversy..   This is such an interesting group. 
>>There are obviously many ways to enjoy this sport, but some participants
>>feel threatened if you choose to enjoy it in some other way than their
>>favorite.  We have the Urban vs Rural, Micro vs Traditional, Hiders vs
>>Finders, and, of course, the Numbers People vs the No-Numbers People.  I'm
>>sure many of you can think of others.  Then we wonder why war is so
>>common.
>>
>>
>>
>>   I have experienced this firsthand.  My wife and I choose not to log
>>caches, not because we think there is anything wrong with the numbers
>>game, but simply because we don't want to participate in that.  When I
>>mentioned that on this list, I received several private emails (from
>>people still active here) that could only be described as abusive and
>>threatening.  Part of that was because I was interviewed by a reporter
>>from Phoenix who knew me and knew I was active in the sport, and some here
>>didn't think I had the "numbers" to speak out like that.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Then we made our second mistake.  We placed a cache.  It wasn't
>>anything special, but the emails it brought me were even worse than the
>>first batch.  How dare I place a cache when my find numbers were so low? 
>>It was obvious I didn't have the experience to actually place a cache. 
>>Well, I'm a fast learner.  The other ammo cans I bought are still sitting,
>>fully stocked, out in my storage shed.  I didn't want to get any more
>>nasty emails.  Too bad.  We do a lot of 4-wheeling, and I have some good
>>places in mind.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Geocaching is a great sport, accessible to people of all ages and
>>levels of physical ability.  If it fails the test of time, it will be
>>because of people who think their way is the right way - the ONLY right
>>way.
>>
>>
>>
>>   So, we will continue to play, our way.  We don't log our finds very
>>often, and we don't do urban caches.  Since we choose to live 8 miles
>>outside a very small town, it shouldn't come as a surprise that we avoid
>>cities.  We also quit hiding caches, so those of you here who jumped all
>>over us for the first one (you know who you are) - well, I'll give you a
>>win on that one.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>   From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
>>[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of Gale
>>   Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 5:21 AM
>>
>>
>>   Next time you place a cache......let's get back to what made us want to
>>go
>>   geocaching in the first place."
>>
>>
>>
>>   I had to respond to this one.
>>
>>
>>
>>   This article was written by someone who wants to return to the days
>>where only physically fit people have access to caches. Like it or not,
>>other people have become geocachers. Physically unfit people have
>>discovered an activity they can enjoy. I dont see why both cache types
>>cant co-exist? Ive seen some nice rural caches, as well as junky ones.
>>Same with urban caches
>>
>>
>>
>>   "Again, lately I have really been enjoying the occasional cache I have
>>found
>>   as I have been really only doing wilderness hiking caches around
>>Sedona.
>>   They are my kind of fun."
>>
>>
>>
>>   Thats great Scott, but it is not my idea of fun. Feel free to play your
>>way. I cant do those kinds of caches. Ever since falling down stairs 12
>>yrs ago, I have not had the mobility I used to have. I would like to
>>continue to play the game my way without feeling like an unwelcome
>>outsider.
>
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