skydad (The Lunch Club) wrote:
>Enough already!!  Truly amazing that there is even a topic on "cheating" in
>regards to geocaching.  Even more amazing that so many people care.


Thanks for the feedback Skydad, but you might want to skip reading this email.

For the cachers that were interested in this topic:

I followed Rand's advice and contacted Marc with questions regarding his logs on two of our caches.
Marc responded curious to know why I requested the information.  I then explained the situation in more detail and told him about the listserv so that he could be included in the conversation.  I informed him of how I was a bit skeptical when it came to his finds as were some other cachers.

Marc has since sent me two emails describing our two caches.  The descriptions were detailed enough for me to be confident in believing that he did in fact visit the caches and chooses not to sign the logbooks.

So as for cheating, I personally do not think that this is an issue.  Not signing the logbooks will be an issue each cache owner will have to decide for themselves.  In this case I have chosen to leave the logs, but in the furture I may add in my cache descriptions that signing the logbook is required to receive credit for the cache, as I enjoy trying to maintain an accurate log.

Marc - Thank you for being helpful and understanding.

Jon
Aus Dem Kasten

----- Original Message -----
From: <az-geocaching-request@listserv.azgeocaching.com>
To: <az-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 12:05 PM
Subject: Az-Geocaching digest, Vol 1 #1210 - 6 msgs


  
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Beach Reading (Andrew Weissman, Psy.D.)
   2. Cheater / Not Cheater (Marc Leitermann)
   3. Re: Cheater / Not Cheater (Tim Giron)
   4. RE: Beach Reading (Team Tierra Buena)
   5. Re: Cheater / Not Cheater (Brian Cluff)
   6. RE: Cheater / Not Cheater (Andrew Ayre)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Andrew Weissman, Psy.D." <psydaz@hotmail.com>
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Beach Reading
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:10:55 -0700
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>Steve,</P>
<P>Do you know the author of the book?</P>
<P>Andrew<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Team Tierra Buena"
    
<TEAMTIERRABUENA@EARTHLINK.NET></DIV>
  
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: "Arizona Geocaching"
    
<AZ-GEOCACHING@LISTSERV.AZGEOCACHING.COM>
  
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Beach Reading
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:17:31 -0700
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;The exchange between the "Andrews" about longitude suddenly
    
reminded me
  
<DIV></DIV>&gt;of a book I read in the years BC (Before Caching). It has
    
the rather
  
<DIV></DIV>&gt;long title of Longitude: The True Story of a Lone Genius
    
Who Solved the
  
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Greatest Scientific Problem of His Time, and it's written
    
by Dava Sobel.
  
<DIV></DIV>&gt;The title pretty much sums it up. It might not sound like
    
interesting
  
<DIV></DIV>&gt;reading, but I couldn't put it down. and that's before I
    
even knew what
  
<DIV></DIV>&gt;a GPSr is. Could be a good one for you to take on your
    
summer vacation.
  
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Steve
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Team Tierra Buena
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>MSN 8 with <a
    
href="http://g.msn.com/8HMJENUS/2740??PS=">e-mail virus protection service:
</a> 2 months FREE*</html>
  
--__--__--

Message: 2
To: az-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com
From: "Marc Leitermann" <marc_54140@excite.com>
Cc:
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:18:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Cheater / Not Cheater
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com


To all who worry:

I would like to thank Jon (Aus Dem Kasten) for telling me about this
    
thread on alleged cheating.  Here's my thoughts, for what they are worth.
  
Looking thru the national site, I found this:

"What are the rules in Geocaching?
Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very
    
simple:
  
1. Take something from the cache
2. Leave something in the cache
3. Write about it in the logbook "

Looking at the on-line log entries for several caches, including several I
    
have logged, you can find any combination of these three 'rules'.  Several
clearly state they did not take something.  Well, how is that really
different from not writing in the logbook? I take the use of the word 'rule'
above as meaning a suggested action.  Certainly nothing engraved in stone.
  
Signing a log is definite proof the person was at the cache.  However, the
    
reverse is not proof, of anything.  If someone (certainly not me!) wants to
list a lot of caches he or she has not actually found, so what? Afraid of
someone 'headed for the last page of the stats' (as AZFastFeet states)
before you? I'm at a modest 270+, and am working to up that number, just as
I suppose all of you are.  And although my biggest thrill is actually
finding the cache, I also enjoy looking at the numbers.
  
I generally cache with two different friends - one who loves to dig thru
    
the cache and see what's there, and write in the book.  However, he quite
often does not take and leave, since he forgets to bring something to
exchange.
  
The other's point of view is like mine - "he sounds weird because I am
    
sure that lots of people just enjoy finding the cache (like us), not looking
at the contents or signing a log - he is missing the point of the game (its
suppose to be fun)." (This person is not even registered with the national
site).
  
BTW, I list only caches I find.  Anything I cannot find (and there are a
    
number)I do not list, nor do I make notes, etc.  This is my personal
preference, so that when I look at my on-line listings, they are not
cluttered up.
  
Do I plan on changing?  I do not believe I will.  I'm out to have fun.

Happy caching, wherever you are ....

Marc


_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: Tim Giron <tgiron@cox.net>
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Cheater / Not Cheater
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:33:01 -0400
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

Um, I just wanted to clarify that my tagline was in reference to the fact
    
that I haven't been caching very much lateley and therefore I am headed in
the other direction!
  
"Afraid of someone 'headed for the last page of the stats' (as AZFastFeet
    
states) before you?"
  

--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Team Tierra Buena" <teamtierrabuena@earthlink.net>
To: <listserv@azgeocaching.com>
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Beach Reading
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:58:48 -0700
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

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-----Original Message-----
From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of
Andrew Weissman, Psy.D.
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:11 AM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Beach Reading



Steve,

Do you know the author of the book?

Andrew

Dava Sobel.

Steve
Team Tierra Buena

____________________________________________________________
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

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0in 4.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Andrew Weissman, =
Psy.D.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font =
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Thursday, May
 29, 2003</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>8:11 =
AM</span></font><font size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
listserv@azgeocaching.com<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: =
[Az-Geocaching] Beach
Reading</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<div>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Steve,</span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Do you
know the author of the book?</span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Andrew</span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dava =
Sobel.</span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Steve<br>
Team Tierra Buena</span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</body>

</html>
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--__--__--

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:20:45 -0700
From: Brian Cluff <brian@Snaptek.com>
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Cheater / Not Cheater
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

Marc Leitermann wrote:
    
"What are the rules in Geocaching?
Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very
      
simple:
  
1. Take something from the cache
2. Leave something in the cache
3. Write about it in the logbook "
      
BTW, I list only caches I find.  Anything I cannot find (and there are a
      
number)I do not list, nor do I make notes, etc.  This is my personal
preference, so that when I look at my on-line listings, they are not
cluttered up.
  
Do I plan on changing?  I do not believe I will.  I'm out to have fun.
      
I think you seem to be missing the point of the person hiding the cache.
If I just wanted my stuff to sit in the desert and didn't care if I knew
  for a fact that people were visiting it I would just throw it out the
window.  The logs are what makes the cache worth hiding.  And I don't
think you will find anyone that will argue that the log IN the cache
isn't the authoritative list of people that have been to the cache.
Especially since there are usually 1/3 or more cachers listed in the
paper logs than there are on the online version.

Brian Cluff
Team Snaptek


--__--__--

Message: 6
From: "Andrew Ayre" <andy@britishideas.com>
To: <listserv@azgeocaching.com>
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Cheater / Not Cheater
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:38:40 -0700
Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com

I think another point that you should understand Marc, is that it is
generally regarded as open to the cache hider the exact rules on recording
    
a
  
find for that specific cache. A lot of cache hiders when comparing the
    
paper
  
log to the online log will delete your online log (including me - I will
Email the person first to find out what is going on), so you are running
    
the
  
risk of having your online record altered/deleted in places. Is that what
you want for not spending literally 30 seconds to write at least your name
on a piece of paper? If you follow the numbers game then I wouldn't think
so. If you are happy with that and just having fun finding then I don't
    
see
  
a problem with you not signing the log. Just don't start complaining when
people delete your online logs.

Andy


-----Original Message-----
From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com]On Behalf Of Brian
Cluff
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 9:21 AM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Cheater / Not Cheater


Marc Leitermann wrote:
    
"What are the rules in Geocaching?
Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very
      
simple:
    
1. Take something from the cache
2. Leave something in the cache
3. Write about it in the logbook "
      
BTW, I list only caches I find.  Anything I cannot find (and there are a
      
number)I do not list, nor do I make notes, etc.  This is my personal
preference, so that when I look at my on-line listings, they are not
cluttered up.
    
Do I plan on changing?  I do not believe I will.  I'm out to have fun.
      
I think you seem to be missing the point of the person hiding the cache.
If I just wanted my stuff to sit in the desert and didn't care if I knew
  for a fact that people were visiting it I would just throw it out the
window.  The logs are what makes the cache worth hiding.  And I don't
think you will find anyone that will argue that the log IN the cache
isn't the authoritative list of people that have been to the cache.
Especially since there are usually 1/3 or more cachers listed in the
paper logs than there are on the online version.

Brian Cluff
Team Snaptek

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