"I’m sure some owners would like to know. Others will automatically be against the idea of a cache on their property, insurance and liability and all that. The end result will be less places to put caches, that’s for sure." Maybe less places, but atleast the places that caches are placed are ones where they are welcomed. If a cacher really wants their cache to be located in a specific parking lot they should do what they can to ease any concerns of the property owner. In the past we have sat down with a few different people in order to get their permission for our cache. After explaining the benefits of geocaching and how it can benefit them by bringing their location to more peoples attention, they were pleased to allow and even help us place our cache. Either way, wouldn't a property owner rather have the chance to say no before being hit with a lawsuit because someone slipped and fell into their dumpster? :) Jared ----- Original Message ---- From: noshdoo tsoh To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:05:38 PM Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Only an altoids tin!! There is quite a bit going on there with urban caches and permission. I had thought of permission issues more through rural caching where it is often with public land managers. One question that comes to mind right away regarding urban caches, Do all parking lot owners, especially in publicly used areas, even want to know every time a micro is placed on their property? It seems like opening a can of worms unnecessarily. I’m sure some owners would like to know. Others will automatically be against the idea of a cache on their property, insurance and liability and all that. The end result will be less places to put caches, that’s for sure. It reminds me of a similar push on public lands. There are lots of places where cows can leave cow pies all over the mountainside and desert, but I cannot place a cache. In some cases, it wasn’t the land manager, who often had no local policy, but the cache-police types from within our own community, who gladly triggered the restriction. Oh well, back in the good ole days… From: az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com [mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of Jared Ross Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:27 PM To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Only an altoids tin!! Yeah, to be perfectly honest it was rather annoying to learn that I was trying to explain myself to the devil's advocate that has no first hand knowledge of the situation. You've seen some amazing places when out caching, I can only imagine how you would feel if you stopped doing that for a while and only did urban caches. Sometimes when it comes to urban caching you've gotta try to balance it out with a few rural caches to keep your sanity. By the way, I don't think we were all that far off. I have no problems with micros, in fact most of our hides are micros. Earlier I said I would rather find an easy micro in a park (even an LPC) than find a more difficult micro behind a dumpster. Now give me a difficult micro in a park and we're in real business! I like caches in parks because by now most cities have acknowledged caching in their parks and the Parks & Recreation guys are very aware as well. We've been approached by Parks & Recreation officers before but after telling them we were geocaching they've just joined in the hunt. Everyday we hear of more and more people running into trouble (either the owner or the finder) because they were trespassing. This usually occur in parking lots, behind stores such as Home Depot, Wal-Mart, etc (my apologizes for using the stereotypical stores). And as more of these caches are found by newcomers their popularity and acceptance amongst the caching community grows. Unfortunately their acceptance amongst property owners and law enforcement do not grow and are leading to discussions of banning the activity in some areas. Whether finding a cache like this is a treasure for one cacher or not, when placed in situations like this it's very detrimental to the sport. Maybe we need a different approach than posting negative or snobbish remarks, but I don't think we can just ignore the issue. Furthermore, we don't need to assume that all parking lot caches don't have permission. Case in point, there is a growing series of caches known as the Off Your Rocker series. They are caches placed at Cracker Barrel restaurants all around the US . Being a guy from the midwest that grew up on this kind of food I happen to have fond memories of making stops at Cracker Barrel's whenever we were on long trips. I decided to start a bookmark list so that it would be easier for cachers to locate these OYR caches while on a road trip. Something I found out right away was whether or not permission was allowed for these caches. As it turns out all caches placed at Cracker Barrels are pre-approved by the Head of Advertising at the Corporate Office (as long as the cache meets the other guidelines set forth by gc.com). Hiders are still encouraged to notify the local store manager but atleast if something were to happen their is a name and contact information for each cache. I have included this persons full contact information in my bookmark list. The only unfortunate side to all of this is that even though approval has been given not many cache owners actually list this information in their cache descriptions. Maybe instead of leaving our negative remarks we could ask the cache owner to supply the name of the person(s) who gave permission for the cache. There's actually a similar discussion going on in the forums right now where they are discussing whether or not permission should be a forced requirement for all caces located in parking lots (since someone does own the property). I can't find it right now or I'd post a link to it. Jared ----- Original Message ---- From: noshdoo tsoh < geocaching@deepsouthwest.com > To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 11:20:38 AM Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Only an altoids tin!! In fairness to Jared and the rest of the posters on this topic, I have no familiarity with actually going after urban micros or the seeking issues that come with these. I don’t doubt these things that have been mentioned to be true. The 'sneaking around' aspect of some of these caches sounds like no fun at all to me personally, and I would give up on a cache that appeared to leading me to that kind of situation. My point, and ShadowAce has heard my rant more than once, ;-) is that if others enjoy a certain cache, or cache type, and it’s within the law, then they should be allowed to play the game their way without being harassed by cachers who don’t like it. A negative find log when you were mislead about what you were seeking seems a great way to voice displeasure, but there are those who’d love to go further. Self-anointed cache cops are always waiting in the wings. How ‘bout an HOA-type organization to represent us and tell us about the proper way to cache? It’s been suggested. From: az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com [mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of AZcachemeister Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 9:03 AM To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Only an altoids tin!! Perhaps we all should have a look at this site: The Geocacher's Creed AZcachemeister wrote: DWYT is good! Here's another that has been used: >From Prime Suspect's Geo-lexicon. DPM – Including the letters “DPM” in a cache log was a once-secret way to indicate the cache was of low quality. DPM is an abbreviation for “des palourdes mortes", which is French for “the dead clams”. The entire French phrase is “Les longs sanglots des palourdes mortes blessent mon coeur avec un languor monotone pendant qu'ils dansent à minuit", which translates to “The long sobs of the dead clams wound my heart with a monotonous languor as they dance at midnight”. The idea was to include this phrase in a cache log to clue in others that the cache was of low quality. Rarely actually used, as the meaning of DPM quickly spread throughout the geocaching community, and its secrecy was lost. Jared Ross wrote: Anyone else have any ideas or comments on how we can improve the caches in our state? Maybe we need a special acronym. Instead of TFTC we could have DWYT (Don't Waste Your Time). Of course we could always start using this website to generate log entries for us: http://loungingatwalden.googlepages.com/RandomLog.html My favorite generated log entry: "This cache was ill-conceived and ill-received. You should turn your GPS over to the nearest authorities! TNLN and almost didn't bother signing the log!!" ____________________________________________________________Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.comTo edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit:http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona 's Geocaching Resourcehttp://www.azgeocaching.com ____________________________________________________________ Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit: http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona 's Geocaching Resource http://www.azgeocaching.com Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. ____________________________________________________________ Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit: http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona's Geocaching Resource http://www.azgeocaching.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097