A great idea! This ought to go a long way to squelching any problems between them and us. Regan L Smith wrote:let's not forget what else I was told " This park is not here for your little game" this of all statements have me pissed and I am going to report this Officer and I just forgot his name..... here is a thought and Steve if you would also give it a thought Lets have an EVENT CACHE AT USERY PARK, since it is near Bulldog and the Tonto maybe a Ranger can come and talk... I will contact Usery while reporting the officer with a personal agenda but will also find out what it will take to reserve a Ramada and fire up the grill, I am thinking of sponsoring it hot dogs/ hamburger buns , should get some soda from work and then let everyone bring the fixings and extras this would also be a good time to bring newbie's because with officials there we could hear first hand the rules...... and maybe wishful thinking an ammo can for a cache to be hidden...... ----- Original Message ----- From: "RopingThe Wind" To: Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 8:22 PM Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What > > > >From: "Team Tierra Buena" > >Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com > >To: > >Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What > >Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:45:11 -0700 > > > >Regan, > > > >I'm glad I read your log before I replied. Maricopa County Parks are not > >"national forest", as you wrote below (you had me going there for a couple > >of minutes!). > > > >I think what it comes down to is that it is illegal to enter a Maricopa > >County Park for ANY reason without paying the "user fee". But the MCP > >representative at the land management meeting last month did say that they > >were planning to revise their policy to make it much more restrictive on > >the > >placement of geocaches than it has been. That saddened me, because I > >thought > >MCP's "two mile rule" was a great compromise. > > > >Coincidentally, I got a private email today from someone who wrote me that > >our "Grandma Sarah's Cache", which is in the McDowell Mountain Regional > >Park > >(part of MCP), may be missing and that a ranger there told him "it better > >not be there". But as of this morning, when I was checking it for something > >else, their "old" policy is still on the web site > >(http://www.maricopa.gov/parks/news/). What worries me now is that they may > >have issued a new policy to the park staff, but haven't yet bothered to > >make > >it available to the general public. I hope my fear is unfounded. > > > >Steve > > > >Team Tierra Buena > > > Steve, > > Regan's log is rather incomplete. I would like to tell the whole story. I > was with Regan today. We went out for two caches. I had already found ARRGG > cache a long time ago. But, Regan had not. We were then going to go do K9 > Conclusion Cache, which I had not yet attempted. Now, with Regan driving and > I in the passenger seat, we pulled up and parked on the side of Usuarry Pass > Rd, just about due east of the AARRGG Cache. There are no 'no parking' signs > along this stretch of the road. Also, there were no 'park boundary' signs > that we saw in the vicinity of the hill that AARRGG Cache is on. There was a > fence line south of the AARRGG Cache that did have a 'park boundary' sign > posted on it. This fence ended it's north run along the side of the roadway > and then turned toward the west. We never crossed a fence or 'park boundary' > sign on our way from the roadway (were we parked) to the cache. We arrive at > the cache and I look back to see a park ranger at Regan's car. After logging > his find, we head back to the car. The park ranger greeted us and asked for > ID and all that good stuff. He then told us we were tresspassing. He said > this was private property. I explained that the park boundary fence line > terminates just south of here and then turns west. At no time, did we cross > a fence to get to the cache nor pass a sign stating this was private > property or a park boundary. We then explained to the ranger what we were > doing back there and that we were geocaching and showed him the printout of > the cache page. OH WAIT! We just said GEOCACHE... When we said we were > geocaching the park ranger said "oh dont tell me you were geocaching or I > will arrest you right now". Those were his very words. So, Regan said.. oh > we were just hiking :) At any rate, after a few minutes of getting the 5th > degree, the officer was 'kind' enough to let us off the hook. But, we did > spend several minutes talking about geocaching. The park ranger said > "geocaching is illegal on Maricopa County Park lands". I told him that I > recall reading of the regulations outlining geocaching on Maricopa County > Parks web site concerning where geocaches can be placed. He said there were > no laws or guidelines written for geocaching in the county parks and that it > is illegal to cache on county parks land. Now we all know this is not true, > since it is outlined on the County Parks web site. > > At any rate... we were apparently on County Park land and we were indeed > trespassing. But, since it was decided we werent geocaching, he let us go. > :/ I again explained that I would have never gone to the cache if I knew I > was doing so unlawfully. > > Later in our conversations, the park ranger said that we could basically do > anything out there as long as we had a permit (do I hear a contradiction > here???). A permit costs like $4 or $5 bucks to enter the park. That's all > fine, but I had no idea we were in the park or we would have purchased a > permit! Later yet in our conversations with the ranger, he also told us it > was illegal to geocache on National Forest land. > > WELL, DAMN.. I REALLY AM CONFUSED NOW!!!!!!!!!! > > The park ranger (police officer) also said that he could arrest us for > geocaching and tresspassing and also seize our home computers and house and > everything else. We listened to him, spoke our peace and we were then on o ur > way. We did have conversation for several minutes and the whole conversation > was low toned and we were respectful of the park rangers position. After > shaking hands, we were on our way. > > I don't know what to make of this whole thing..... > > Maricopa County Parks says it is ok to geocache as long as we follow certain > guidelines, guidelines which are outlined on their website. This park ranger > says we can't. Which is it?!?! What about National Forest land? I have gone > 28 years of my life without any kind of negative run in's with the law until > I got into geocaching. Since I began geocaching, I have been approached > numerous times by city police, park rangers, and even a police detective > about what I was doing and sometimes the legality of what I was doing would > be questioned. Of course, most all of these encounters where while doing > urban caches. On this speciic above mentioned cache, we were seeking out an > ammo can in a wilderness type setting (county park as it were). I never, > ever thought I would deal with these kinds of issues while geocaching in the > wilderness. I never have been a fan of urban caching. I always enjoyed doing > the wilderness type caches. Now, I cant do that without being questioned by > authorities. I am not sure I like this game much anymore. Like most anything > we do in life, it becomes less and less fun as it becomes more restrictive > through government regulation. Is this the goal of our government? To > control the people until we have no freedom to do the things we enjoy?! Some > things in life, we must deal with this government regulations as it may > concern something we do for a living. However, geocaching is not how I make > my living, it is merely a hobby. I simply don't care to deal with these > kinds of issues anymore and I at this time am contemplating standing aside > to guage where this hobby/sport of geocaching is going. I don't want to play > this game anymore unless I can have an actual paper copy of every land > agency's regulations concerning geocaching. This way, I know exactly where > my boundaries are and I can be 100% sure I am doing so lawfully. > > I deal with landowner issues in another hobby of mine. That hobby is also > how I make my living. I am constantly dealing with city ordinance issues and > the like. It is regulated on a local, state and federal level. I have had > meetings with many different east valley municipalities' concerning > regulations and ordinances. I have even met with the chief's of police in a > couple of these cities. I just have no desire to deal with these issues in > any other areas. I have 800 cache finds in less than two years and obviously > enjoy the hobby very much. But, I don't like feeling like a criminal > everytime I go seeking out a cache... even in a wilderness environment. It > just isn't fun. > > Scott > Team Ropingthewind > > _________________________________________________________________ > See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now > FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com > > ____________________________________________________________ > Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com > To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit: > http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching > > Arizona's Geocaching Resource > http://www.azgeocaching.com ____________________________________________________________ Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit: http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona's Geocaching Resource http://www.azgeocaching.com Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so: "Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges -- "Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!" Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears