Sounds like a good idea. If you can't take the mountain to... But the real question is will there be Mr Pibb or Orange Crush available? :) LazyK - Dan -----Original Message----- From: Regan L Smith [mailto:buggers@mindspring.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:10 PM To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Re: Who Manages What an IDEA let's not forget what else I was told " This park is not here for your little game" this of all statements have me pissed and I am going to report this Officer and I just forgot his name..... here is a thought and Steve if you would also give it a thought Lets have an EVENT CACHE AT USERY PARK, since it is near Bulldog and the Tonto maybe a Ranger can come and talk... I will contact Usery while reporting the officer with a personal agenda but will also find out what it will take to reserve a Ramada and fire up the grill, I am thinking of sponsoring it hot dogs/ hamburger buns , should get some soda from work and then let everyone bring the fixings and extras this would also be a good time to bring newbie's because with officials there we could hear first hand the rules...... and maybe wishful thinking an ammo can for a cache to be hidden...... ----- Original Message ----- From: "RopingThe Wind" To: Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 8:22 PM Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What > > > >From: "Team Tierra Buena" > >Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com > >To: > >Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What > >Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:45:11 -0700 > > > >Regan, > > > >I'm glad I read your log before I replied. Maricopa County Parks are > >not "national forest", as you wrote below (you had me going there for > >a couple > >of minutes!). > > > >I think what it comes down to is that it is illegal to enter a > >Maricopa County Park for ANY reason without paying the "user fee". > >But the MCP representative at the land management meeting last month > >did say that they > >were planning to revise their policy to make it much more restrictive > >on the placement of geocaches than it has been. That saddened me, > >because I thought > >MCP's "two mile rule" was a great compromise. > > > >Coincidentally, I got a private email today from someone who wrote me that > >our "Grandma Sarah's Cache", which is in the McDowell Mountain > >Regional Park (part of MCP), may be missing and that a ranger there > >told him "it better not be there". But as of this morning, when I was > >checking it for something > >else, their "old" policy is still on the web site > >(http://www.maricopa.gov/parks/news/). What worries me now is that > >they may > >have issued a new policy to the park staff, but haven't yet bothered > >to make it available to the general public. I hope my fear is > >unfounded. > > > >Steve > > > >Team Tierra Buena > > > Steve, > > Regan's log is rather incomplete. I would like to tell the whole > story. I was with Regan today. We went out for two caches. I had > already found ARRGG > cache a long time ago. But, Regan had not. We were then going to go do > K9 Conclusion Cache, which I had not yet attempted. Now, with Regan > driving and > I in the passenger seat, we pulled up and parked on the side of > Usuarry Pass > Rd, just about due east of the AARRGG Cache. There are no 'no parking' signs > along this stretch of the road. Also, there were no 'park boundary' > signs that we saw in the vicinity of the hill that AARRGG Cache is on. > There was a > fence line south of the AARRGG Cache that did have a 'park boundary' > sign posted on it. This fence ended it's north run along the side of > the roadway > and then turned toward the west. We never crossed a fence or 'park boundary' > sign on our way from the roadway (were we parked) to the cache. We > arrive at > the cache and I look back to see a park ranger at Regan's car. After logging > his find, we head back to the car. The park ranger greeted us and > asked for > ID and all that good stuff. He then told us we were tresspassing. He > said this was private property. I explained that the park boundary > fence line terminates just south of here and then turns west. At no > time, did we cross > a fence to get to the cache nor pass a sign stating this was private > property or a park boundary. We then explained to the ranger what we > were doing back there and that we were geocaching and showed him the > printout of > the cache page. OH WAIT! We just said GEOCACHE... When we said we were > geocaching the park ranger said "oh dont tell me you were geocaching > or I will arrest you right now". Those were his very words. So, Regan > said.. oh we were just hiking :) At any rate, after a few minutes of > getting the 5th degree, the officer was 'kind' enough to let us off > the hook. But, we did spend several minutes talking about geocaching. > The park ranger said "geocaching is illegal on Maricopa County Park > lands". I told him that I recall reading of the regulations outlining > geocaching on Maricopa County Parks web site concerning where > geocaches can be placed. He said there were > no laws or guidelines written for geocaching in the county parks and > that it > is illegal to cache on county parks land. Now we all know this is not true, > since it is outlined on the County Parks web site. > > At any rate... we were apparently on County Park land and we were > indeed trespassing. But, since it was decided we werent geocaching, he > let us go. :/ I again explained that I would have never gone to the > cache if I knew I > was doing so unlawfully. > > Later in our conversations, the park ranger said that we could > basically do > anything out there as long as we had a permit (do I hear a > contradiction here???). A permit costs like $4 or $5 bucks to enter > the park. That's all fine, but I had no idea we were in the park or we > would have purchased a permit! Later yet in our conversations with the > ranger, he also told us it was illegal to geocache on National Forest > land. > > WELL, DAMN.. I REALLY AM CONFUSED NOW!!!!!!!!!! > > The park ranger (police officer) also said that he could arrest us for > geocaching and tresspassing and also seize our home computers and > house and > everything else. We listened to him, spoke our peace and we were then > on o ur > way. We did have conversation for several minutes and the whole conversation > was low toned and we were respectful of the park rangers position. > After shaking hands, we were on our way. > > I don't know what to make of this whole thing..... > > Maricopa County Parks says it is ok to geocache as long as we follow certain > guidelines, guidelines which are outlined on their website. This park ranger > says we can't. Which is it?!?! What about National Forest land? I have gone > 28 years of my life without any kind of negative run in's with the law until > I got into geocaching. Since I began geocaching, I have been > approached numerous times by city police, park rangers, and even a > police detective about what I was doing and sometimes the legality of > what I was doing would > be questioned. Of course, most all of these encounters where while > doing urban caches. On this speciic above mentioned cache, we were > seeking out an > ammo can in a wilderness type setting (county park as it were). I > never, ever thought I would deal with these kinds of issues while > geocaching in the > wilderness. I never have been a fan of urban caching. I always enjoyed doing > the wilderness type caches. Now, I cant do that without being > questioned by > authorities. I am not sure I like this game much anymore. Like most anything > we do in life, it becomes less and less fun as it becomes more > restrictive through government regulation. Is this the goal of our > government? To control the people until we have no freedom to do the > things we enjoy?! Some > things in life, we must deal with this government regulations as it > may concern something we do for a living. However, geocaching is not > how I make > my living, it is merely a hobby. I simply don't care to deal with > these kinds of issues anymore and I at this time am contemplating > standing aside to guage where this hobby/sport of geocaching is going. > I don't want to play > this game anymore unless I can have an actual paper copy of every land > agency's regulations concerning geocaching. This way, I know exactly > where my boundaries are and I can be 100% sure I am doing so lawfully. > > I deal with landowner issues in another hobby of mine. That hobby is > also how I make my living. I am constantly dealing with city ordinance > issues and > the like. It is regulated on a local, state and federal level. I have > had meetings with many different east valley municipalities' > concerning regulations and ordinances. I have even met with the > chief's of police in a > couple of these cities. I just have no desire to deal with these > issues in any other areas. I have 800 cache finds in less than two > years and obviously > enjoy the hobby very much. But, I don't like feeling like a criminal > everytime I go seeking out a cache... even in a wilderness > environment. It just isn't fun. > > Scott > Team Ropingthewind > > _________________________________________________________________ > See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it > now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com > > ____________________________________________________________ > Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com > To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit: > http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching > > Arizona's Geocaching Resource > http://www.azgeocaching.com ____________________________________________________________ Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit: http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona's Geocaching Resource http://www.azgeocaching.com