> "At what point do we say, 'I shouldn't go over
> there'"? I ask this because for these three caches
> I've had to go through a barbed wire fence, pass
> between "No Trespassing" signs and hike a quarter-mile off-trail in a 
> park where we pay a per vehicle fee to maintain the existing trails.
> 
> Mark A. Pederson
> aka Highwayhavoc

Mark,

Noting that you had logged our nearby cache, it was pretty easy for me
to figure out that the last example you're talking about above is the
"McDowell Car Cache". That's a good example of some of the issues that
we all face.

That cache is on Maricopa County Parks and Recreation (MCPR) land. I
can't prove it, but it's a safe bet that when Highpointer placed that
cache (about two weeks shy of a year ago), the County Park authorities
had no policy on Geocaching, if they even knew it existed. One day after
the infamous Arizona Republic article was published (which used another
MCPR park as "evidence" that Geocachers were vandalizing archaeological
sites), the MCPR web site published a policy which said in effect,
"Geocaching is a wonderful thing, as long as you don't do it within our
parks. No caches allowed."

At the end of September a meeting was held between a number of cachers
and a number of land management agencies, including MCPR. At the
meeting, they told us that the MCPR policy was actually that caches
could be placed off-trail as long as they were more than two miles from
the trailhead. But they never posted that policy on the Web site, or
anywhere else that I know of. In fact, they left the blanket prohibition
policy on the Web site until sometime within the last two weeks. Now I
can find nothing at all on the site (http://www.maricopa.gov/parks/)
about caching.

Tomorrow (Tuesday) I am attending another meeting with state land
managers. I am anticipating that a MCPR rep will be attending and I hope
we can get them to publish their current policy on their Web site.

Okay, so it would still seem that the McDowell Car Cache violates their
policy. The problem is, how would anyone know that if they don't publish
the policy? We had about a dozen different agencies at that September
meeting, and their policies ranged from unconditional prohibition
(tribal lands) to just about "do whatever you want as long as you have a
permit" (state land trust). I can't keep them all straight, and I may
spend more time worrying about all the policies than anyone else on this
list.

All this by way of answering your original question, "At what point do
we say, 'I shouldn't go over there'?" with, "As soon as you're not
comfortable going over there."

I think the responsibility for placing caches in conformance with the
policy of a given area belongs with the person who places it. After all,
we're supposed to get permission to place caches. Does that always
happen? No. So it ultimately comes back to you as the seeker when you
get there.

There's a cache in the Northwest Valley I went to called "It's Not a
Circus Tent". In looking for an approach to the cache, I concluded that
it's either through church (private) property from the south, or going
right through a line of "No Trespassing" signs on the north. I wouldn't
do it. It didn't feel right, so I left.

There are 49 other log entries on that cache besides mine. All of them
are finds. And though I wrote in my log I thought the cache ought to be
withdrawn, it hasn't stopped others from going, and I don't think any
less of anyone who has done it. Perhaps you'll do it in the future. It's
just one of many that I'll likely never log as "found".

Sorry for the rambling; I'm trying to catch up on a weekend's worth of
Geocaching email.

Steve
Team Tierra Buena
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". -- Dave
Barry