I might be in the minority, I know one reason and I am not sure if I agree. I saw a log on Diablo point that stated there was a snake on top of the pile of rocks, personally I would cause that snake to move, and then log it, but that I think is a good reason. The reason that people are in the area is what adds to the difficulty of the cache. I have place a few in locations of high traffic area, and the reason of the rating was not so that people can guess where it might be, but to wait to grab it, when nobody is around that is the challenge. I don't believe there is any reason not to log it, if you can't log it as a note and return to make the actual find. That's my two peso's worth Denny from Tres Hombres -----Original Message----- From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com [mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of az-geocaching-request@listserv.azgeocaching.com Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 9:30 AM To: az-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com Subject: Az-Geocaching digest, Vol 1 #487 - 12 msgs Send Az-Geocaching mailing list submissions to az-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to az-geocaching-request@listserv.azgeocaching.com You can reach the person managing the list at az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Az-Geocaching digest..." Today's Topics: 1. One exception to "signing the log" rule (Mike Schwarz) 2. Re: Az-Geocaching digest, Vol 1 #486 - 6 msgs (Karl Smith) 3. RE: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Team Tierra Buena) 4. Re: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Eric Quinn) 5. Re: One exception to "signing the log" rule (SNOW6006@aol.com) 6. RE: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Scott Nicol) 7. Re: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Jeakell@aol.com) 8. RE: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Baja Fleg) 9. Re: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Jason Poulter) 10. Re: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Brian Cluff) 11. newbie (Arvin) 12. RE: One exception to "signing the log" rule (Scott Nicol) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:06:33 To: listserv@azgeocaching.com From: Mike Schwarz Subject: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com I do think it is essential to sign the log book/sheet at the cache location, with one exception: It is VERY important that a non-cacher does not see you retrieving or replacing the cache. If they do, it's quite possible the end result is they could walk off with the cache, and all its contents, including any travel bugs, are history. We have quite a number of archived caches in Arizona, and it's always best to minimize the chance that a cache will be stolen. For some of the urban caches in city parks, people may be having a picnic nearby, sitting on a bench nearby, etc., etc. I feel that if other people nearby would probably witness your act of retrieving or replacing the cache that you've located, and it appears that they will be there for awhile, it is okay, and in fact much preferred, that you do NOT retrieve the cache and sign in, and go ahead and log this as a find out on the web. In this situation, the importance of not having the cache "liberated" overrides the importance of signing in to the physical logbook. Of course, if the non-cachers nearby appear like they might be gone soon, or are just walking by, you should just wait a few minutes until the area clears, then retrieve the cache and sign the log. However, if it looks like those people may be there for a long time, NOT retrieving the cache, and logging a find on the web, is then okay. Some may say you should wait until the area clears and then pull the cache out, but most of us don't have time to sit around idle for 1 hour, 2 hours, or longer, waiting for nearby people to leave. It's a judgement call on your part. I would say if people appear like they will be in the immediate area of the cache for 10 minutes or longer, then leave the cache be, and log it on the web as a find. Taekwondoman also had this attitude, and did this with several caches, and I know of at least one other cacher (with well over 100 finds), who posts here periodically, who has done this too. For myself, I only had to do this once (out of 110 physical caches I've found). I didn't retrieve Secret Garden for this reason, a dozen people may have seen me pull it out of its hiding spot, which I could see a few feet away. The irony of this was, after this cache had a few more finds in April, it disappeared, and since Dobre emailed me that he was "very busy", I took a replacement container down there myself several weeks later, when the garden was empty. Other than this one situation, I think you should always sign the physical logbook/sheet in order to log the cache as a find on the web, unless there is no logbook in the cache. I found this last situation with Sacagewea's Retreat in Mund's Park. Fortunately, I had an extra logbook with me, so I signed it and left it in that cache. But the majority of cachers don't carry spare logbooks with them, so needless to say, it would have been impossible to sign a physical logbook if it ain't there. Mike Team Malthusian At 08:14:18 -0700 7/1/02, Steve wrote: > >Karl, > >> IMO, I don't think they >> should count as a 'real' find, but at least they make me feel like I >> accomplished something. >> >> What you do you guys/gals think? > >This guy thinks you're right on both counts. > >To me, the essence of a find is signing the log (or in the case of a >virtual, finding the required information). I can think of several >caches where I have been within inches of them, and have been unable to >find the cache. I know I have been within inches, because I have gone >back and found them on the subsequent attempts. > >There aren't a lot of rules in what we do, but signing the log is one of >them. "Close" only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and Geodashing >(which counts a find if you get within 100 meters, or something like >that). > >Steve >Team Tierra Buena > > --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:49:32 -0700 From: "Karl Smith" To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Re: Az-Geocaching digest, Vol 1 #486 - 6 msgs Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Team Tierra Buena, > This guy thinks you're right on both counts. At least you feel my pain ;) My plan it to go ahead and log them as 'post a note' and post a picture to show that we gave it the 'old college try'. I think posting them as 'couldn't find it' isn't quite the best description. Brian, > In other words, you would probably need a couple thousand dollar lens > for your camera, something along the lines of what you see on the side > lines of sporting events :) I have a friend who would be happy to loan me his 600mm lens... nah, if I broke it I would have to mortgage the house and throw in a couple children to pay him back. Praying for rain, Karl Silent Yellow Dog Team --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Team Tierra Buena" To: Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:19:58 -0700 Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com > I do think it is essential to sign the log book/sheet at the > cache location, with one exception: It is VERY important that > a non-cacher does not see you retrieving or replacing the > cache. Ensuring that a cache and your activities are not detected by civilians must be among a cacher's highest priorities. But I respectfully disagree with Mike that this situation is an exception to "finding = logging". Particularly with urban caches, retrieving, logging, and replacing without arousing suspicions among the Muggles is part of the challenge. If the presence of others prevents you from getting to the cache, how do you know you would have found it if you *had* gotten to it? It's not a great leap of logic to go from "I was in the area and couldn't get to it, but I'll count it" to "I was in the area and I couldn't see it, but I'll count it". We once had someone log a find on one of our caches. The online entry read something like, "There were a lot of people around, so I eyeballed the cache area." I emailed him and asked him to change his log entry to a note and explained why I thought it shouldn't count. He did change it, and later went back and actually found it. But not all cache owners would do this. As I said in my original message on this thread, there aren't a lot of rules to this game. If you're comfortable with Mike's exception, invoke it when you need it and log it as a find. If it's one of ours, though, you'll probably hear from us about it. One last point: Karl, I do "feel your pain". Our team has felt it firsthand on several occasions. And I don't personally have a problem with posting notes in these circumstances. But IMO, they ain't Finds. Steve Team Tierra Buena --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:27:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Quinn Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com --- Mike Schwarz wrote: > I do think it is essential to sign the log > book/sheet at the cache > location, with one exception: > It is VERY important that a non-cacher does not see > you retrieving > or replacing the cache. I've done this once myself and I debated if I should count it as a log. Since there was nothing preventing me from retrieving the cache beyond the fact that others nearby would see me do so, I logged it as a find. I agree with Brian that you have to be able to see it (feel it?), at a minimum, before being able to count it. I'd be kind of suprised if caches near Flag could be seen from 100 yards away. Eric Team Dragon __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: SNOW6006@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:15:52 EDT Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com --part1_156.1031de74.2a5266d8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I now know the reason that we don't have 100 cache finds yet ... because if we can't sign the log book, we don't count it as a find. On several caches, we came back another day because we couldn't retrieve it without being seen. If we are not able to go back, then we don't count it. Too us, "sleuthing" is all part of the fun of geocaching. (Sometimes I feel like we are undercover spy's.) We have had one exception to that rule. We could see the cache, but could not reach it because my husband and I are short and the cache was placed in a very high location. But the fun of geocaching is that there are few hard and fast rules and you can't get kicked out of the club (ha ha)! And it is too bad that the owners of the caches in Flagstaff had not temporarily disabled them so that geocachers don't end up on wild-goose chases. --part1_156.1031de74.2a5266d8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I now know the reason that we don't have 100 cache finds yet ... because if we can't sign the log book, we don't count it as a find.  On several caches, we came back another day because we couldn't retrieve it without being seen.  If we are not able to go back, then we don't count it. Too us, "sleuthing" is all part of the fun of geocaching. (Sometimes I feel like we are undercover spy's.) 

We have had one exception to that rule.  We could see the cache, but could not reach it because my husband and I are short and the cache was placed in a very high location.

But the fun of geocaching is that there are few hard and fast rules and you can't get kicked out of the club (ha ha)!

And it is too bad that the owners of the caches in Flagstaff had not temporarily disabled them so that geocachers don't end up on wild-goose chases. --part1_156.1031de74.2a5266d8_boundary-- --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Scott Nicol" To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:00:21 -0700 Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com I very much agree with Steve (Tierra Buena) on the subject of logging a find. No log... no find. That is how I do it anyways. Part of the fun of geocaching (and the challenge) is getting to the cache and logging it. I personally would not feel like I accomplished anything if I didn't sign the logbook. The feeling of accomplishment would be lost. Especially on urban caches. I found 14 caches today. I could have had probably 16 or 17. However, one cache (I cant think of the name of it off hand; in a park near Union Hills west of Cave Creek) I found myself sitting for probably a half an hour or more waiting for some park workers to move. They were just sitting there right in the area I was to search for the coords for the second part of that multi-cache. I finally left and went for a couple others and returned a couple hours later. They were still there! Just sitting there in the shade! Geez! Look where our tax dollars is going! I waited again for another half hour or so before finally calling it quits on that one and heading off to another cache. I could never consider that a 'find'! I never saw it. Never had the chance though! I also wasnt going to walk on over and start searching in front of them! I have had situations where I laid eyes on a micro cache but could not retrieve it and again had to come back another time. To me that is not a find if I could not log into it. Even if that cache is 100 miles from my house. That is all part of the challenge. I have had many, many, many situations were I didnt get to the cache due to too many people in the area. I simply went back another day or another time and found it and logged it. Everyone plays the game a bit differently. This is just how Team Ropingthewind does it! Scott Team Ropingthewind Team Ropingthewind's web page: http://www.safwp.bravepages.com/geocaching.html _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Jeakell@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 00:03:03 EDT Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com --part1_fb.28845420.2a527ff7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree that to log a find, the team needs to actually locate the cache and enter a log in the cache. Part of the challenge is sometimes having good timing when finding the cache and discretion is always important. Many urban caches are difficult because they are camouflaged. Just being near the cache is not sufficient. I know we don't have any "rules" to our sport, but I vote for keeping some integrity and consistency in the game. Kelly - "roadrunners" --part1_fb.28845420.2a527ff7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree that to log a find, the team needs to actually locate the cache and enter a log in the cache.  Part of the challenge is sometimes having good timing when finding the cache and discretion is always important.  Many urban caches are difficult because they are camouflaged.  Just being near the cache is not sufficient.  I know we don't have any "rules" to our sport, but I vote for keeping some integrity and consistency in the game.    
Kelly - "roadrunners" --part1_fb.28845420.2a527ff7_boundary-- --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Baja Fleg" To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:12:56 -0600 Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Hey Scott what if someone logs a find on a cache that you own but they say for whatever reason that they didn't make a log in the log book. What do you do?? Yeah, on one of my caches that we own that did happen. Michael Team TJ ----Original Message Follows---- I very much agree with Steve (Tierra Buena) on the subject of logging a find. No log... no find. That is how I do it anyways. Part of the fun of geocaching (and the challenge) is getting to the cache and logging it. I personally would not feel like I accomplished anything if I didn't sign the logbook. The feeling of accomplishment would be lost. Especially on urban caches. I found 14 caches today. I could have had probably 16 or 17. However, one cache (I cant think of the name of it off hand; in a park near Union Hills west of Cave Creek) I found myself sitting for probably a half an hour or more waiting for some park workers to move. They were just sitting there right in the area I was to search for the coords for the second part of that multi-cache. I finally left and went for a couple others and returned a couple hours later. They were still there! Just sitting there in the shade! Geez! Look where our tax dollars is going! I waited again for another half hour or so before finally calling it quits on that one and heading off to another cache. I could never consider that a 'find'! I never saw it. Never had the chance though! I also wasnt going to walk on over and start searching in front of them! I have had situations where I laid eyes on a micro cache but could not retrieve it and again had to come back another time. To me that is not a find if I could not log into it. Even if that cache is 100 miles from my house. That is all part of the challenge. I have had many, many, many situations were I didnt get to the cache due to too many people in the area. I simply went back another day or another time and found it and logged it. Everyone plays the game a bit differently. This is just how Team Ropingthewind does it! Scott Team Ropingthewind Team Ropingthewind's web page: http://www.safwp.bravepages.com/geocaching.html _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________________ Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona's Geocaching Resource http://www.azgeocaching.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:44:03 -0700 From: Jason Poulter To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Do not try and find the cache. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. There is a cache. Then you'll see, that it is not the cache that finds, it is only yourself. jason --__--__-- Message: 10 Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule From: Brian Cluff To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Date: 02 Jul 2002 08:16:35 -0700 Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com D'oh, you blew it on your twisted Matrix quote :) Brian Cluff Team Snaptek On Mon, 2002-07-01 at 22:44, Jason Poulter wrote: > Do not try and find the cache. That's impossible. Instead... only try to > realize the truth. > > There is a cache. > > Then you'll see, that it is not the cache that finds, it is only yourself. > > jason > > > _______________________________________________ > Az-Geocaching mailing list > listserv@azgeocaching.com > http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching > > Arizona's Geocaching Resource > http://www.azgeocaching.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Arvin" To: Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:03:11 -0700 Subject: [Az-Geocaching] newbie Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Hi all. Have been wanting to try cache hunting for a couple of years. Bought a cheep gps a few months ago. But the forest is now closed so will wait till fall to look around here.(Payson) Heading to Zion Nat. Park this Wednesday. Anyone have an interesting cache I should visit there or on the way? Seeya adub --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Scott Nicol" To: listserv@azgeocaching.com Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 09:34:02 -0700 Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com >From: "Baja Fleg" >Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com >To: listserv@azgeocaching.com >Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] One exception to "signing the log" rule >Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:12:56 -0600 > >Hey Scott what if someone logs a find on a cache that you own but they say >for whatever reason that they didn't make a log in the log book. What do >you do?? >Yeah, on one of my caches that we own that did happen. > >Michael >Team TJ Howdy Michael, First, my question to you: what did you do when that situation came up? Did you allow the log entry to stand? If someone logs a find on one of my caches and states they only saw it and never really got to it and logged their visit... I would ask them to change their find log to a note until they can get back there to log in or have their log deleted. No log... no find. Of course, that is how I would do it. It is up to the individual cache owner to decide what rules (if any) there will be. I will state in my cache description a log entry must be made, just so the cacher knows that up front. I beleive that by reading all the posts on this recent subject... that the large majority agree that a log should be made in the logbook to count as a find. As the Roadrunners said... we need to maintain some integrity to this hobby. If everyone started logging finds that said they saw it and never logged in and the cache owner goes to retreive the cache log after say a year and finds not a single log in it... that wouldnt be any fun, would it? I have had several situations where I almost could not log into a cache, even though I saw it. However, we always prevailed and got to the cache. Urban caches this has happened often. I just be patient and wait for the right moment to grab the cache or I just come back another time to get to it. I have spoken my .02cents on this thread and will speak no more! This is just my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own. On the subject of hiding our first cache: We havent hid our first cache yet (we are trying to break Sand Dollars record for the most cache finds before placing one! - really bad cache karma!)... Of course, if someone did do that (no log in the logbook)... I guarantee they are not going to want to go all the way back to it again to log in! ;) heheheehehehehhehehhe We do have our first cache in my posession! Yes, it is an ammo box. There is your only hint yall are gonna get! :) We have a special place we want to put our very first cache and it is not accessible right now until the land closures are lifted. We have several other places we want to put one including an urban cache. However, we want this first one to be special and just cant place it right now. I would like to place our first cache hide by balloon. However, we would probably end up waiting a long time to accomplish that were we want to put it! When we go out on adventure flights, that ammo box is coming with me and if I find that perfect spot... I might just land and drop it off! Scott Team Ropingthewind Scotts Adventure Flying Web Page (and now geocaching web page!) http://www.safwp.bravepages.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Az-Geocaching mailing list listserv@azgeocaching.com http://listserv.azgeocaching.com/mailman/listinfo/az-geocaching Arizona's Geocaching Resource http://www.azgeocaching.com End of Az-Geocaching Digest