Let me re-word what I said yesterday; I didn't express myself
as well as I should have on Monday.

For MOST of us, we simply don't want to spend TOO much time and
effort on an individual cache.  Its perfectly okay if a FEW of
us want to; it all depends on how much time you have, and how
fanatical you are about it.  If somebody finds 100 caches in one
month, they are obviously fanatical, and I actually admire their
determination and resolve; its just that most of us don't care
to spend THAT much time on caching.

Also, as far as "raising the bar" (Denny's terminology), I agree
that some may enjoy solving puzzles or decrypting something, to
get the coordinates.  A number of caches have something MINOR of
this sort to do; heck, one of MY caches requires that you know
something about the rock group Blind Melon.  If you're unfamiliar
with them, though, the info can be had via an internet search
engine in a few minutes.

A few people want to have a DIFFICULT challenge of this sort, and
that's fine.  But such caches should be rated at least a 4 to 4.5,
if that's the case.  In some cases, they are not rated as high as
they should be.  Even if there is no puzzle to solve, if a cache 
proves very elusive for many people, it shouldn't be rated a 2.5 
in difficulty, as Ya Skala was.  BTW, we're still waiting for that 
one to be replaced by the owner; it disappeared in late April.

Other people, like me, want their challenge in the terrain rating 
instead.  I don't mind a hike with 1,000 feet or more of elevation 
change, although I'd only do such a hike close to home VERY EARLY 
now.  When it's cool, I enjoy the caches with terrain ratings of 
3.5 or 4.  Many people don't, and that's their prerogative.  I 
find it a little surprising that only 5 teams have gone up to 
"Place Tup Top" so far, but I do understand and respect the fact 
that many people don't like a steep hike, like Camelback Mtn or
my Club 2400 cache, or in a few cases, may be physically unable 
to do such a hike.  We are all different.

So, to restate what I said yesterday, for MOST of us, we don't
want to spend an enormous amount of time on obtaining data for
an individual cache.  But if a few geocachers wish to spend many
many hours searching for products, or decrypting something, to 
get the coordinates for a cache, that's fine, if they have that
kind of time to spare.

Mike (Malthusian)

At 05:43:15 -0700 6/4/02, Darren wrote:
>
> Mike wrote:
>> I agree with Loran that finding something shouldn't take TOO much
>> time and effort.  Not referring to any cache in particular, I find
>> that ANY cache that requires too much time and effort is not worth
>> pursuing, so I just ignore it.  I would suggest that you do the
>> same.  There's no reason to have to find EVERY single cache out
>> there.
>>

>But then again, there are some of us out there that really do get our kicks
>by being somewhat stumped and then finally overcoming the creative barrier
>and finding the cache.  It's all a matter of personal taste.
>
>
> Mike wrote:
>> After more than 45 minutes of searching for Ya Skala, I just gave
>> up, and with the constant parade of people walking by there, I
>> decided I would NOT try searching for that one again.  With over
>> 15,000 active caches in the world, I believe a few can be skipped.
>>
>
>I've spent 5 hours searching for Ya Skala, and though I haven't had any luck
>in finding it, I won't give up on that one.  I won't make special trips out
>that way to look for it, but if I'm in the area I'll spend some time there
>contemplating where it is.  (though recently I have a lot better idea of
>what to look for).  Though if my mext attempt comes up in failure, I will be
>heading back with a backhoe and a sifting crew.
>
>Part of the challenge of this hobby is.....the challenge.  Not all caches
>are going to be easy to find, and nor should they be, and that's the reason
>that there's a difficulty number.  The higher numbered ones SHOULD require
>more of an inventment in time and mental energy.  There are times that I
>want to be able to go out and rack up 9 or 10 caches, and there are times
>that I want to be challenged.
>
>My 2 ducats worth.
>
>Darren
>Team Imperial Eagle
>