<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><span style="font-style: italic;">"</span><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: windowtext;"><span style="font-style: italic;">I’m sure some owners would like to know. Others will automatically be
against the idea of a cache on their property, insurance and liability and all
that. The end result will be less places to put caches, that’s for sure."</span><br><br>Maybe less places, but atleast the places that caches are placed are ones where they are welcomed. If a cacher really wants their cache to be located in a specific parking lot they should do what they can to ease any concerns of the property owner. In the past we have sat down with a few different people in order to get their permission for our cache. After explaining the benefits of geocaching and how it can benefit them by bringing their location to more peoples attention, they were pleased to allow and even help us place our cache. Either way, wouldn't a property owner rather have the chance to say no before being hit with a lawsuit because someone slipped and fell into their dumpster? :)<br><br>Jared<br></span></font><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: noshdoo tsoh
<geocaching@deepsouthwest.com><br>To: listserv@azgeocaching.com<br>Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:05:38 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Only an altoids tin!!<br><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: windowtext;">There is quite a bit going on there
with urban caches and permission. I had thought of permission issues more
through rural caching where it is often with public land managers. One question
that comes to mind right away regarding urban caches, Do all parking lot
owners, especially in publicly used areas, even want to know every time a micro
is placed on their property? It seems like opening a can of worms unnecessarily.
I’m sure some owners would like to know. Others will automatically be
against the idea of a cache on their property, insurance and liability and all
that. The end result will be less places to put caches, that’s for sure.</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: windowtext;">It reminds me of a similar push on
public lands. There are lots of places where cows can leave cow pies all over
the mountainside and desert, but I cannot place a cache. In some cases, it wasn’t
the land manager, who often had no local policy, but the cache-police types from
within our own community, who gladly triggered the restriction. Oh well, back
in the good ole days…</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext;"> az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Jared Ross<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February 11, 2007
1:27 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> listserv@azgeocaching.com<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Az-Geocaching] Only
an altoids tin!!</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: windowtext;"></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Yeah, to be
perfectly honest it was rather annoying to learn that I was trying to explain
myself to the devil's advocate that has no first hand knowledge of the
situation. You've seen some amazing places when out caching, I can only imagine
how you would feel if you stopped doing that for a while and only did urban
caches. Sometimes when it comes to urban caching you've gotta try to balance it
out with a few rural caches to keep your sanity. By the way, I don't think we
were all that far off. I have no problems with micros, in fact most of our
hides are micros. Earlier I said I would rather find an easy micro in a park
(even an LPC) than find a more difficult micro behind a dumpster. Now give me a
difficult micro in a park and we're in real business! I like caches in parks
because by now most cities have acknowledged caching in their parks and the
Parks & Recreation guys are very aware as well. We've been approached by
Parks & Recreation officers before but after telling them we were
geocaching they've just joined in the hunt. Everyday we hear of more and more
people running into trouble (either the owner or the finder) because they were
trespassing. This usually occur in parking lots, behind stores such as Home
Depot, Wal-Mart, etc (my apologizes for using the stereotypical stores). And as
more of these caches are found by newcomers their popularity and acceptance
amongst the caching community grows. Unfortunately their acceptance amongst
property owners and law enforcement do not grow and are leading to discussions
of banning the activity in some areas. Whether finding a cache like this is a
treasure for one cacher or not, when placed in situations like this it's very
detrimental to the sport. <br>
<br>
Maybe we need a different approach than posting negative or snobbish remarks,
but I don't think we can just ignore the issue. Furthermore, we don't need to
assume that all parking lot caches don't have permission. Case in point, there
is a growing series of caches known as the Off Your Rocker series. They are
caches placed at Cracker Barrel restaurants all around the
US . Being a guy
from the midwest that grew up on this kind of food I happen to have fond
memories of making stops at Cracker Barrel's whenever we were on long trips. I
decided to start a bookmark list so that it would be easier for cachers to
locate these OYR caches while on a road trip. Something I found out right away
was whether or not permission was allowed for these caches. As it turns out all
caches placed at Cracker Barrels are pre-approved by the Head of Advertising at
the Corporate Office (as long as the cache meets the other guidelines set forth
by gc.com). Hiders are still encouraged to notify the local store manager but
atleast if something were to happen their is a name and contact information for
each cache. I have included this persons full contact information in my
bookmark list. The only unfortunate side to all of this is that even though
approval has been given not many cache owners actually list this information in
their cache descriptions. Maybe instead of leaving our negative remarks we
could ask the cache owner to supply the name of the person(s) who gave
permission for the cache.<br>
<br>
There's actually a similar discussion going on in the forums right now where
they are discussing whether or not permission should be a forced requirement
for all caces located in parking lots (since someone does own the property). I
can't find it right now or I'd post a link to it.<br>
<br>
Jared</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message
----<br>
From: noshdoo tsoh < geocaching@deepsouthwest.com ><br>
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com<br>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 11:20:38 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Only an altoids tin!!</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color: windowtext;"></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: windowtext;">In fairness to Jared and the rest of
the posters on this topic, I have no familiarity with actually going after
urban micros or the seeking issues that come with these. I don’t doubt
these things that have been mentioned to be true. The 'sneaking around' aspect
of some of these caches sounds like no fun at all to me personally, and I would
give up on a cache that appeared to leading me to that kind of situation. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: windowtext;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: windowtext;">My point, and ShadowAce has heard my
rant more than once, ;-) is that if others enjoy a certain cache, or cache
type, and it’s within the law, then they should be allowed to play the
game their way without being harassed by cachers who don’t like it. A
negative find log when you were mislead about what you were seeking seems a
great way to voice displeasure, but there are those who’d love to go
further. Self-anointed cache cops are always waiting in the wings. How
‘bout an HOA-type organization to represent us and tell us about the
proper way to cache? It’s been suggested. </span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext;"> az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>AZcachemeister<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February 11, 2007
9:03 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> listserv@azgeocaching.com<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Az-Geocaching] Only
an altoids tin!!</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Perhaps we all should have a look at this site: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.geocreed.info/index.html">The Geocacher's
Creed</a><br>
<br>
AZcachemeister wrote: </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">DWYT is good! <br>
Here's another that has been used:<br>
<br>
>From Prime Suspect's Geo-lexicon.<br>
</span></font><b><font face="Verdana" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold;">DPM</span></font></b><font face="Verdana" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Verdana;"> –
Including the letters “DPM” in a cache log was a once-secret way to
indicate the cache was of low quality. DPM is an abbreviation for “des
palourdes mortes", which is French for “the dead clams”. The
entire French phrase is “Les longs sanglots des palourdes mortes blessent
mon coeur avec un languor monotone pendant qu'ils dansent à minuit", which
translates to “The long sobs of the dead clams wound my heart with a
monotonous languor as they dance at midnight”. The idea was to include
this phrase in a cache log to clue in others that the cache was of low quality.
Rarely actually used, as the meaning of DPM quickly spread throughout the geocaching
community, and its secrecy was lost.</span></font><br>
<br>
Jared Ross wrote: </p>
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<br>
Anyone else have any ideas or comments on how we can improve the caches in our
state? Maybe we need a special acronym. Instead of TFTC we could have DWYT
(Don't Waste Your Time). Of course we could always start using this website to
generate log entries for us: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://loungingatwalden.googlepages.com/RandomLog.html">http://loungingatwalden.googlepages.com/RandomLog.html</a><br>
My favorite generated log entry: "This cache was ill-conceived and
ill-received. You should turn your GPS over to the nearest authorities! TNLN
and almost didn't bother signing the log!!"</span></font></p>
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<pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre><pre style="text-align: center;"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre><pre style="text-align: center;"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre><pre style="margin-bottom: 12pt; text-align: center;"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre><pre style="text-align: center;"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br><br><hr align="center" size="4" width="90%"><br><br></span></font></pre><pre style="margin-bottom: 12pt; text-align: center;"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre><pre style="text-align: center;"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre><pre style="text-align: center;"><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre><pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre><pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">____________________________________________________________</span></font></pre><pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Az-Geocaching mailing list <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:listserv@azgeocaching.com">listserv@azgeocaching.com</a></span></font></pre><pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">To edit your setting, subscribe or unsubscribe visit:</span></font></pre><pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
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