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I definitely agree with Scott and Brian here.<br>
There are most certainly boneheads in all classes of OHV drivers, but I
have to think the guy spending $10-20-30K+ on his decked out 4WD
(interesting, the 4 and $ use the same key) will probably be a bit more
considerate than the guy who only spent $500 on a whim. <br>
As far as the Copper Sticker goes, I will more than gladly pony up my
$20 if it can provide better patrolling to remove the jerques from the
area.<br>
<br>
Brian Casteel wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAP+PrS7qweNFi6glKiZhUX3CgAAAEAAAAJjX0ScdKrFOovfu2+8DEE8BAAAAAA==@uccinc.net"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I tend to agree. I'm a member of one of the 4x4 clubs in town, and we all
follow a tread lightly philosophy. Environmental groups looking for a + in
the 'designated wilderness' use ATV tracks as their prime examples, but lump
motorcycles, snowmobiles and full-size 4x4s into the category of destructive
users. We've even found that some of the propaganda pictures aren't even of
the area they're trying to get shut down. That said, there isn't a single
category of absolute innocents, but in my experience it is primarily ATV
riders that tear up the terrain and create most of the spider trails. One
of the most beautiful areas I've ever had the opportunity to wheel into was
the Independence Mine area south of Big Timber, MT. But on the drive to the
wilderness area boundary, we passed through an area where I counted no less
than FIFTEEN spider trails the width of a quad in the same general area.
These trails were paralleling the main trail through the landscape. We
watched (and filmed) a group of guys blow past us and tear across the
terrain with absolute disregard. Despite ripping them a new hole, they
still did it, apparently invincible because they were all wearing revolvers
on their hips (our vehicles and persons were equipped enough to fight as a
small army, but that's beside the point).
Most often times, it isn't the riders on the true trail ATVs, but the
Predator style rides driven by hotshots with something to prove to the
masculinity of the world. Take Bulldog Canyon for example, which has its
fair share of...incidents. One day I was going for a few caches, and a
couple people were in a gully shooting illegally. I called a Ranger and
they showed up to ruin this guy's day by taking his guns and handing a
substantial ticket to the tune of I believe $5000. While talking to the
officer afterwards, we talked about wheelin' in the canyon area, and he was
telling me about how 5 or 6 times during every summer, they land a
helicopter to haul some moron off to get fixed, because they went head-on
into a full size vehicle on a blind turn. How did this happen, you ask?
The full-size vehicles have always been doing <15mph to the 40+mph the ATV
is doing. They hotrod around corners and can't hear the other vehicle
coming because of the high-RPM engine noise. The unintended result is that
the full-size driver has an unwanted passenger via the front windshield.
When our club goes on rides, at no time are we doing >10mph unless it's a
flat road and we are in 2WD. The rest of the time it's 4HI or 4LO and we're
literally crawling along at only around 3-5mph. The argument is that the
full-size vehicles have so much more power and can therefore be more
destructive. This is true in one way, but not in practical applications
(most of the time). My vehicle has more power than the average ATV. It has
more power to crawl over obstacles at lower speeds, requiring minimal wheel
spin to do so. You take an ATV that doesn't have the luxury of 2500lbs of
additional weight, and it takes significant wheel spin to overcome that same
obstacle, or they'll simply go around on a spider trail. It also seems that
either the ATVs I see causing this destruction either don't have 4WD or the
rider chooses to not use it "because they can". Some of the spider trails
I've seen were created in areas where the original 2-track was a little
bumpy. If it's an ATV people, why the he|| are you looking for the mall
crawler way around?
While unfair in some ways to the motorcycle/ATV enthusiasts, overall they
need to better police themselves and not just shake heads when some moron
tears across the land on a trail that's being created as they ride. We
wheel by example, but there just seems to be too many who choose to ignore
that example, and few of them are on anything but ATVs.
Some of it is just lack of education on the proper way to recreate on public
lands, while some of it is simple common sense. Others yet are just defiant
and don't care until they wind up in a halo. Even then, it sometimes isn't
enough.
Brian
Team A.I.
-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com">az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com">mailto:az-geocaching-bounces@listserv.azgeocaching.com</a>] On Behalf Of Roping
The Wind
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 10:38 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:listserv@azgeocaching.com">listserv@azgeocaching.com</a>
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] FW: Arizona Game and Fish wants to hear from ou
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:AZcachemeister@getnet.com"><AZcachemeister@getnet.com></a>
Reply-To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:listserv@azgeocaching.com">listserv@azgeocaching.com</a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:listserv@azgeocaching.com">listserv@azgeocaching.com</a>
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] FW: Arizona Game and Fish wants to hear from
ou
Date: 20 Nov 2006 09:07:50 -0700
Licensed vehicles will not be required to have the sticker according to the
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">discussion @ virtual jeep.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
(disclaimer: this might be a bit controversial.... call it what you want,
but this is what I have seen and witnessed, so I can say it 'matter of
factly')
That is how I understand it. Only UNREGISTERED vehicles have to have this
permit. That would be ATC's and ATV's and Motorcycles that are generally
trailered to their starting points (and of course rockcrawlers and jeeps
that are not driven on the roadways). I knew something like this would
eventually happen. The website says something like 'due to the recent heavy
growth of off road activities". In my opinion, that huge growth of off road
driving is all ATV's and cycles. In my opinion, they are the ones that do
the most damage to the environment. Of course, there are good people and bad
apples in every group.... but in general, from what I have seen over the
past 15 years that I have really been paying attention to this stuff...
jeeps (and similar vehicles) tend to 'tread lightly'. They usually can be
seen just crawling along. Not kicking up a lot of dust (which is another
huge issue with the local government agencies) and not tearing up the
desert. The ATVs/quads and cycles are usually the ones racing across the
desert, kicking up tons of dust and creating new trails. The area of desert
SE of Apache Junction is a PRIME example. That whole area (south of US
60/West of State Route 79) and east of the CAP canal) has a good number of
trails out there. They used to be all 2 track 'jeep' type trails. Lots of
pinstriping along the way! Over the past few years, those 2 track trails
have become very wide and sandy. The amount of vegetation along these
roads/trails have become very sparse. Why have these trails become so much
wider? Why cant the riders stay on the original two tire tracks that used to
be the trail? Then after heavy rains, the 'mudders' have to come along and
tear the trails up farther by creating huge ruts (this is the reason the
forest service closes its roads in the winter). Then, the ATV's and Quads
come back in and have to ride around the mud hole full of ruts and thus
create a new trail... thinning the vegetation and eventually widening the
trail (this is called 'no respect for the land'). This is what is happening
and in my opinion is very damaging to the environment. I dont like it one
bit and I think the state needs to put a MUCH tighter rein on these ATV's
and motorcycles. I know there might be a few on here that rides cycles and
quads and I know there are some of them that are very respectful of the
land, but in general... these types of vehicles are doing the most damage...
due to their popularity. Just my opinion. But I think alot of the Jeep guys
will agree with me on this. I have witnessed this first hand as I spend alot
of time over this area of desert. and.. no... I dont own a Jeep and I am not
a hardcore 4 wheeler. So my opinions are not biased. It's just that I have
personally never seen a jeep racing across this area of desert, spewing a
ton of dust in the air and tearing up the desert. The most lack of respect
for the land, that I have personally seen, is coming from the ATV/quad and
cycles sector. Again, I am sure there are alot of very respectful riders out
there... but as I said before, due to the popularity of these vehicles,
there are more bad apples in this group now then there was before.
This area of desert has become what is known as an OHV area (off highway
vehicle). It is a place that these types of vehicles can be ridden. I think
with the popularity of them, the state couldnt really 'put a rein' on them,
so they just made the area an OHV area (just like the Rolls near Saguaro
Lake). Its a shame, because that desert used to be very green and pristine.
What is very disspointing to see is that the quads and cycles are now
starting to migrate north of the highway and outside the designated OHV
area.
Scott
Team RTW
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