[Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What
listserv@azgeocaching.com
listserv@azgeocaching.com
Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:40:17 -0500
Ok, before I get into the overall issues here, allow me to point out the obvious.
13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification
A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:
1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.
2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.
B. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.
You first have to be warned about trespassing before being arrested for...trespassing. If you return you are in violation, and therefore can be arrested.
13-1503. Criminal trespass in the second degree; classification
A. A person commits criminal trespass in the second degree by knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully in or on any nonresidential structure or in any fenced commercial yard.
B. Criminal trespass in the second degree is a class 2 misdemeanor.
You weren't knowingly violating anything, and there were no No Parking signs so you weren't illegally parked. Had he cited you, this would be an easy win in court. It wasn't a fenced in commercial yard, but PUBLIC PARK LAND.
When I found the cache in question, my truck, along with another vehicle that was occupied by LazyK, Team CHUMP and another cacher (sorry I can't remember the third team) were parked in the same area. My introduction to them was yelling across that a cop was at our vehicles. We all stood and watched for a few minutes, and the Jeep SUV drove away. I spoke to a Sgt for the Maricopa County Park Rangers a few weeks ago, and the guy was extremely friendly. It was nothing about geocaching, but he was still pretty friendly nonetheless.
Now much to my surprise, I see that the area where the cache was hidden IS in fact Usery Mountain Recreation Area land.
http://www.maporama.com/share/Map.asp?SESSIONID=%7BE7EF57D8-5E92-40A4-A49D-F4D6FBCE42A8%7D&NavigateHeight=46&NavigateWidth=46&ClickMode=1&XgoClickMap.x=369&XgoClickMap.y=269
His threat to arrest was real in that he could have, but the case may very well not have held up in court for one simple reason. The policies as defined on THEIR website spell out something different than what he is telling you. If they have shirked in their duties and not placed updated policy information, there isn't much legal ground for him to stand on. It would be clear grounds for an IA investigation into the incident after a formal complaint was filed.
The 'violation' is a simple misdemeanor. Without a search warrant, nobody can take your computer(s)/GPS/PDA/cellphone/Pringles can used for war-driving away from your home. I challenge anyone to find a judge who would actually sign off on a warrant to seize computers for a simple crime of trespassing on public park lands.
Until they change the information on their website,
http://www.maricopa.gov/parks/news/
no case they initiate will hold up to any pressure. Also, seizing homes/cars/'everything else' is so full of crap this officer should be reported. My job is all about dealing with officers on a regular basis as their dispatcher (aka 'information provider'), and I enjoy researching issues that I think are interesting. In this case, it's the invalid BS this guy was feeding you, which proves my point in an earlier e-mail about his flexing his proverbial muscle. It might have gotten me in a little hot water, but I'd have called him out on it and demanded a supervisor respond. If need be, I myself would have called MCSO for assistance in dealing with this, because the District-1 officers are only a few miles south of that area. But since I wasn't confronted like the two of you were, I'm not going to get into the what-ifs of all of this, although I have been questioned by officers on numerous occasions related to Geocaching. Due to the heightened state of constant paranoia f
ollowing the 9-11 attacks, officers perceive many more things as suspicious for often no reason at all. That little baby in the stroller sucking on a Tootsie Pop might be widdling away the coating to a ball of C-4 that mommy is going to use to blow up the produce section of the grocery store.
It's unfortunate that everyone thinks everyone else is a terrorist (Scott could use his balloon to release a deadly nerve agent you know ;) ), and in a way the terrorists have already won due to the changes invoked in our ways of thinking and public perceptions. I guess some of it might not be unfounded if what I read regularly was made public, but it should have never been allowed to reach this level.
<back on topic>
His statements regarding National Forest Lands is invalid for one simple reason. He has no jurisdiction on those lands, and couldn't site you if he wanted to because they area FEDERAL lands. The Sgt I spoke to mentioned that he couldn't site someone that was violating a law in Bulldog Canyon, because the Mesa Park Rangers and that area are under Federal law.
Oh, and if you are in the park on foot, it's only $1 or 2. I parked out on that road and hiked in to hike Usery Pass (King Usery's Treasure), and they only charged me a fraction of the cost because I was not in a vehicle. On bike/foot makes a difference, so it would have only cost you at most $2/each.
It's sad that this guy had to go on a power-trip with the 2 of you. These are the kinds of things that give police officers overall a bad rap, and they don't seem to care. If you have his name and/or badge, I would urge you to file a formal complaint and let IA handle the issue from there.
> Steve,
>
> Regan's log is rather incomplete. I would like to tell the whole story. I
> was with Regan today. We went out for two caches. I had already found ARRGG
> cache a long time ago. But, Regan had not. We were then going to go do K9
> Conclusion Cache, which I had not yet attempted. Now, with Regan driving and
> I in the passenger seat, we pulled up and parked on the side of Usuarry Pass
> Rd, just about due east of the AARRGG Cache. There are no 'no parking' signs
> along this stretch of the road. Also, there were no 'park boundary' signs
> that we saw in the vicinity of the hill that AARRGG Cache is on. There was a
> fence line south of the AARRGG Cache that did have a 'park boundary' sign
> posted on it. This fence ended it's north run along the side of the roadway
> and then turned toward the west. We never crossed a fence or 'park boundary'
> sign on our way from the roadway (were we parked) to the cache. We arrive at
> the cache and I look back to see a park ranger at Regan's car. After logging
> his find, we head back to the car. The park ranger greeted us and asked for
> ID and all that good stuff. He then told us we were tresspassing. He said
> this was private property. I explained that the park boundary fence line
> terminates just south of here and then turns west. At no time, did we cross
> a fence to get to the cache nor pass a sign stating this was private
> property or a park boundary. We then explained to the ranger what we were
> doing back there and that we were geocaching and showed him the printout of
> the cache page. OH WAIT! We just said GEOCACHE... When we said we were
> geocaching the park ranger said "oh dont tell me you were geocaching or I
> will arrest you right now". Those were his very words. So, Regan said.. oh
> we were just hiking :) At any rate, after a few minutes of getting the 5th
> degree, the officer was 'kind' enough to let us off the hook. But, we did
> spend several minutes talking about geocaching. The park ranger said
> "geocaching is illegal on Maricopa County Park lands". I told him that I
> recall reading of the regulations outlining geocaching on Maricopa County
> Parks web site concerning where geocaches can be placed. He said there were
> no laws or guidelines written for geocaching in the county parks and that it
> is illegal to cache on county parks land. Now we all know this is not true,
> since it is outlined on the County Parks web site.
>
> At any rate... we were apparently on County Park land and we were indeed
> trespassing. But, since it was decided we werent geocaching, he let us go.
> :/ I again explained that I would have never gone to the cache if I knew I
> was doing so unlawfully.
>
> Later in our conversations, the park ranger said that we could basically do
> anything out there as long as we had a permit (do I hear a contradiction
> here???). A permit costs like $4 or $5 bucks to enter the park. That's all
> fine, but I had no idea we were in the park or we would have purchased a
> permit! Later yet in our conversations with the ranger, he also told us it
> was illegal to geocache on National Forest land.
>
> WELL, DAMN.. I REALLY AM CONFUSED NOW!!!!!!!!!!
>
> The park ranger (police officer) also said that he could arrest us for
> geocaching and tresspassing and also seize our home computers and house and
> everything else. We listened to him, spoke our peace and we were then on our
> way. We did have conversation for several minutes and the whole conversation
> was low toned and we were respectful of the park rangers position. After
> shaking hands, we were on our way.
>
> I don't know what to make of this whole thing.....
>
> Maricopa County Parks says it is ok to geocache as long as we follow certain
> guidelines, guidelines which are outlined on their website. This park ranger
> says we can't. Which is it?!?! What about National Forest land? I have gone
> 28 years of my life without any kind of negative run in's with the law until
> I got into geocaching. Since I began geocaching, I have been approached
> numerous times by city police, park rangers, and even a police detective
> about what I was doing and sometimes the legality of what I was doing would
> be questioned. Of course, most all of these encounters where while doing
> urban caches. On this speciic above mentioned cache, we were seeking out an
> ammo can in a wilderness type setting (county park as it were). I never,
> ever thought I would deal with these kinds of issues while geocaching in the
> wilderness. I never have been a fan of urban caching. I always enjoyed doing
> the wilderness type caches. Now, I cant do that without being questioned by
> authorities. I am not sure I like this game much anymore. Like most anything
> we do in life, it becomes less and less fun as it becomes more restrictive
> through government regulation. Is this the goal of our government? To
> control the people until we have no freedom to do the things we enjoy?! Some
> things in life, we must deal with this government regulations as it may
> concern something we do for a living. However, geocaching is not how I make
> my living, it is merely a hobby. I simply don't care to deal with these
> kinds of issues anymore and I at this time am contemplating standing aside
> to guage where this hobby/sport of geocaching is going. I don't want to play
> this game anymore unless I can have an actual paper copy of every land
> agency's regulations concerning geocaching. This way, I know exactly where
> my boundaries are and I can be 100% sure I am doing so lawfully.
>
> I deal with landowner issues in another hobby of mine. That hobby is also
> how I make my living. I am constantly dealing with city ordinance issues and
> the like. It is regulated on a local, state and federal level. I have had
> meetings with many different east valley municipalities' concerning
> regulations and ordinances. I have even met with the chief's of police in a
> couple of these cities. I just have no desire to deal with these issues in
> any other areas. I have 800 cache finds in less than two years and obviously
> enjoy the hobby very much. But, I don't like feeling like a criminal
> everytime I go seeking out a cache... even in a wilderness environment. It
> just isn't fun.
>
> Scott
> Team Ropingthewind
>
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