[Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What

[RopingThe Wind]

>From: "Team Tierra Buena" <TeamTierraBuena@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
>To: <listserv@azgeocaching.com>
>Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What
>Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:45:11 -0700
>
>Regan,
>
>I'm glad I read your log before I replied. Maricopa County Parks are not
>"national forest", as you wrote below (you had me going there for a couple
>of minutes!).
>
>I think what it comes down to is that it is illegal to enter a Maricopa
>County Park for ANY reason without paying the "user fee". But the MCP
>representative at the land management meeting last month did say that they
>were planning to revise their policy to make it much more restrictive on 
>the
>placement of geocaches than it has been. That saddened me, because I 
>thought
>MCP's "two mile rule" was a great compromise.
>
>Coincidentally, I got a private email today from someone who wrote me that
>our "Grandma Sarah's Cache", which is in the McDowell Mountain Regional 
>Park
>(part of MCP), may be missing and that a ranger there told him "it better
>not be there". But as of this morning, when I was checking it for something
>else, their "old" policy is still on the web site
>(http://www.maricopa.gov/parks/news/). What worries me now is that they may
>have issued a new policy to the park staff, but haven't yet bothered to 
>make
>it available to the general public. I hope my fear is unfounded.
>
>Steve
>
>Team Tierra Buena


Steve,

Regan's log is rather incomplete. I would like to tell the whole story. I 
was with Regan today. We went out for two caches. I had already found ARRGG 
cache a long time ago. But, Regan had not. We were then going to go do K9 
Conclusion Cache, which I had not yet attempted. Now, with Regan driving and 
I in the passenger seat, we pulled up and parked on the side of Usuarry Pass 
Rd, just about due east of the AARRGG Cache. There are no 'no parking' signs 
along this stretch of the road. Also, there were no 'park boundary' signs 
that we saw in the vicinity of the hill that AARRGG Cache is on. There was a 
fence line south of the AARRGG Cache that did have a 'park boundary' sign 
posted on it. This fence ended it's north run along the side of the roadway 
and then turned toward the west. We never crossed a fence or 'park boundary' 
sign on our way from the roadway (were we parked) to the cache. We arrive at 
the cache and I look back to see a park ranger at Regan's car. After logging 
his find, we head back to the car. The park ranger greeted us and asked for 
ID and all that good stuff. He then told us we were tresspassing. He said 
this was private property. I explained that the park boundary fence line 
terminates just south of here and then turns west. At no time, did we cross 
a fence to get to the cache nor pass a sign stating this was private 
property or a park boundary. We then explained to the ranger what we were 
doing back there and that we were geocaching and showed him the printout of 
the cache page. OH WAIT! We just said GEOCACHE... When we said we were 
geocaching the park ranger said "oh dont tell me you were geocaching or I 
will arrest you right now". Those were his very words. So, Regan said.. oh 
we were just hiking :) At any rate, after a few minutes of getting the 5th 
degree, the officer was 'kind' enough to let us off the hook. But, we did 
spend several minutes talking about geocaching. The park ranger said 
"geocaching is illegal on Maricopa County Park lands". I told him that I 
recall reading of the regulations outlining geocaching on Maricopa County 
Parks web site concerning where geocaches can be placed. He said there were 
no laws or guidelines written for geocaching in the county parks and that it 
is illegal to cache on county parks land. Now we all know this is not true, 
since it is outlined on the County Parks web site.

At any rate... we were apparently on County Park land and we were indeed 
trespassing. But, since it was decided we werent geocaching, he let us go. 
:/  I again explained that I would have never gone to the cache if I knew I 
was doing so unlawfully.

Later in our conversations, the park ranger said that we could basically do 
anything out there as long as we had a permit (do I hear a contradiction 
here???). A permit costs like $4 or $5 bucks to enter the park. That's all 
fine, but I had no idea we were in the park or we would have purchased a 
permit! Later yet in our conversations with the ranger, he also told us it 
was illegal to geocache on National Forest land.

WELL, DAMN.. I REALLY AM CONFUSED NOW!!!!!!!!!!

The park ranger (police officer) also said that he could arrest us for 
geocaching and tresspassing and also seize our home computers and house and 
everything else. We listened to him, spoke our peace and we were then on our 
way. We did have conversation for several minutes and the whole conversation 
was low toned and we were respectful of the park rangers position. After 
shaking hands, we were on our way.

I don't know what to make of this whole thing.....

Maricopa County Parks says it is ok to geocache as long as we follow certain 
guidelines, guidelines which are outlined on their website. This park ranger 
says we can't. Which is it?!?! What about National Forest land? I have gone 
28 years of my life without any kind of negative run in's with the law until 
I got into geocaching. Since I began geocaching, I have been approached 
numerous times by city police, park rangers, and even a police detective 
about what I was doing and sometimes the legality of what I was doing would 
be questioned. Of course, most all of these encounters where while doing 
urban caches. On this speciic above mentioned cache, we were seeking out an 
ammo can in a wilderness type setting (county park as it were). I never, 
ever thought I would deal with these kinds of issues while geocaching in the 
wilderness. I never have been a fan of urban caching. I always enjoyed doing 
the wilderness type caches. Now, I cant do that without being questioned by 
authorities. I am not sure I like this game much anymore. Like most anything 
we do in life, it becomes less and less fun as it becomes more restrictive 
through government regulation. Is this the goal of our government? To 
control the people until we have no freedom to do the things we enjoy?! Some 
things in life, we must deal with this government regulations as it may 
concern something we do for a living. However, geocaching is not how I make 
my living, it is merely a hobby. I simply don't care to deal with these 
kinds of issues anymore and I at this time am contemplating standing aside 
to guage where this hobby/sport of geocaching is going. I don't want to play 
this game anymore unless I can have an actual paper copy of every land 
agency's regulations concerning geocaching. This way, I know exactly where 
my boundaries are and I can be 100% sure I am doing so lawfully.

I deal with landowner issues in another hobby of mine. That hobby is also 
how I make my living. I am constantly dealing with city ordinance issues and 
the like. It is regulated on a local, state and federal level. I have had 
meetings with many different east valley municipalities' concerning 
regulations and ordinances. I have even met with the chief's of police in a 
couple of these cities. I just have no desire to deal with these issues in 
any other areas. I have 800 cache finds in less than two years and obviously 
enjoy the hobby very much. But, I don't like feeling like a criminal 
everytime I go seeking out a cache... even in a wilderness environment. It 
just isn't fun.

Scott
Team Ropingthewind

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