[Az-Geocaching] Report from Pueblo Grande [Long]

Wed, 1 Oct 2003 18:12:33 -0700

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Nice read Steve the only thing I am fuzzy on is what I call you? :)

I still need to get back with P Liddy of the Mesa Ranger District and =
talk about a cache for the Bull Dog Canyon area....thanks for the =
reminder=20

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Team Tierra Buena=20
  To: Arizona Geocaching=20
  Cc: Mary L. Estes=20
  Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 3:00 PM
  Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Report from Pueblo Grande [Long]

  Besides posting this on the azgeocaching.com mailing list, I am =
copying Mary Estes, who heads up the Site Steward program, and arranged =
and facilitated last night's meeting. I hope that others who attended =
the meeting will also post their impressions and opinions, particularly =
where they disagree with my views.

  The Geocaching community was represented by Marc and Julie (Tamo's =
Clan'Destiny), Brian (Team Snaptek and azgeocaching.com), Christy and =
Joe (Pet Posse), Mark (Highway Havoc), Bob Renner (Bob Renner), and me. =
(Did I forget anyone? My apologies if I did. Lately my memory cells seem =
to be flaking off faster than my dandruff.) The land management agencies =
represented included the State Historic Preservation Office (which =
sponsors the Site Steward program), City of Phoenix, City of Scottsdale, =
Maricopa County, Bureau of Land Management, Tonto National Forest, and =
the Kofa National Wildlife Refuge outside of Yuma.

  I think the atmosphere was very different from the meeting that was =
held a year ago. I believe this is due to the fact that the land =
managers recognize that most Geocachers want to practice our recreation =
in a responsible fashion, and that we have done and continue to do what =
we can as a "virtual community" to educate others in what our =
responsibilities are. I would go so far as to say that every land =
management representative in attendance recognizes the positives in an =
activity such as Geocaching, and they are willing to support it insofar =
as it doesn't conflict with the regulations of their respective agencies =
(and we have to remember that every paid land management representative =
at that meeting gets their pay from some government agency or other).

  I've preached this before here, but it was said repeatedly last night: =
The best thing we can do to prevent problems is to obtain permission =
before placing a cache. That's not always the easiest thing in the world =
to do, and everyone in attendance recognized that. The issues range from =
trying to figure out which agency is responsible for the area where you =
want to place the cache, to finding our what that agency's rules are, to =
finding someone who actually knows what you're talking about and can =
help you. But it's worth the effort.

  Everyone also seems to be aware that not every Geocacher in Arizona =
subscribes to this mailing list, or is even aware that azgeocaching.com =
exists, and that people, particularly newcomers, may go off more in =
ignorance than anything else and do something that they shouldn't. I =
think it is up to us to do what we can to let new cachers know about =
resources such as this mailing list and web site. Brian stated that he =
would be updating the links on the web site to reflect some of the new =
Geocaching policies we have received (and I'll get you the BLM policy =
tomorrow, Brian). And we hope to be able to put together a starter list =
of permission contacts for those agencies where we have them.

  This seems like a good time to remind everyone of what we came up with =
after last year's meeting, which got dubbed "Geo-mentoring". If you own =
a cache, and get a log entry from someone who is relatively new (based =
on their find count), why not drop them a note welcoming them to =
Geocaching and letting them know about azgeocaching.com and the =
listserv? If anyone would like a copy of the boilerplate I use for this, =
drop me an email.

  Random notes: The Phoenix Preserve sounds as though they are going to =
be enforcing their "no off-trail" policy more strictly. I don't have my =
copy of the policy with me here, but everyone who attended got a copy, =
so I hope someone will post it in short order.

  Tonto National Forest continues to welcome Geocaching, except in =
designated wilderness areas and anywhere that would threaten an =
archaeological site. It is for the latter reason that they "suggest but =
do not require" that you contact the appropriate District Office before =
you place a cache within Tonto.

  One item that saddened me a little was that Maricopa County Parks and =
Recreation announced that they are going to be updating their Geocaching =
policy and eliminate the "two-mile rule". But since they want permission =
from the Park Supervisor for any caches placed within their parks, I =
think it might still be possible to work with them if you have a good =
location that's far enough back from the trailhead and not too far =
(whatever that means) off the trail. It was nice to hear that the Pet =
Posse are working with the county staff to see if they might be able to =
implement a reduced "geocaching-only entrance fee".=20

  Kofa NWR has some concerns about some specific caches already placed =
within the Refuge, but Susana Henry, the representative from Kofa, told =
me she would look into them individually herself. Again, she does not =
appear to be opposed to caches within the Refuge, so I would advise =
anyone planning on placing a cache down there to contact her at the =
refuge first.

  The question was raised about obtaining land management permission for =
virtual caches (the question of whether we can obtain permission for =
virtual caches from The Powers What Am at geoaching.com is a separate =
issue and irrelevant to this discussion). There are several perspectives =
on this from the land management side, but my sense of the consensus was =
that if the virtual is located in a maintained public place that =
permission would not be necessary, but if the site is off trail or =
similar than permission should be requested (although personally I still =
wouldn't attempt to place a virtual at the Deer Valley Rock Art Center). =

  Finally, we decided to try something new when we next have a meeting =
such as this. Since the next best thing we can do (other than getting =
permission for caches) is to spread the gospel of Responsible Geocaching =
and educate new cachers, we are going to set up the next meeting as an =
event cache, and actively seek newer Geocachers as attendees. We will =
have a lot of details to work out over the next several months, from =
content to whether we will need to limit attendance, but as it comes =
together I'll keep you posted. Don't be surprised if it's a year off, =
though.

  What pleases me most about the above idea (which came from Mary Estes) =
is that it seems to indicate that most land managers no longer see =
Geocaching as merely a threat against the lands they manage (a sardonic =
"thanks again" to Christina Leonard of the "Republic" for originally =
provoking that attitude), but rather as an activity that with some =
exceptions does have a beneficial place on public lands.

  My heartfelt thanks to everyone who attended, cachers and land =
managers alike.

  Steve

  Team Tierra Buena

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nice read Steve the only thing I am =
fuzzy on is=20
what I call you? :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I still need to get back with P Liddy =
of the Mesa=20
Ranger District and talk about a cache for the Bull Dog Canyon =
area....thanks=20
for the reminder </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DTeamTierraBuena@earthlink.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:TeamTierraBuena@earthlink.net">Team Tierra Buena</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  title=3Daz-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:az-geocaching@listserv.azgeocaching.com">Arizona =
Geocaching</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Dmestes@pr.state.az.us=20
  href=3D"mailto:mestes@pr.state.az.us">Mary L. Estes</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 01, =
2003 3:00=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Az-Geocaching] Report =
from=20
  Pueblo Grande [Long]</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Besides posting this on =
the=20
  azgeocaching.com mailing list, I am copying Mary Estes, who heads up =
the Site=20
  Steward program, and arranged and facilitated last night's meeting. I =
hope=20
  that others who attended the meeting will also post their impressions =
and=20
  opinions, particularly where they disagree with my =
views.</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Geocaching community =
was=20
  represented by Marc and Julie (Tamo's Clan'Destiny), Brian (Team =
Snaptek and=20
  azgeocaching.com), Christy and Joe (Pet Posse), Mark (Highway Havoc),=20
  </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Bob =
Renner</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">=20
  (</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Bob =
Renner</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">), and me.=20
  (Did I forget anyone? My apologies if I did. Lately my memory cells =
seem to be=20
  flaking off faster than my dandruff.) The land management agencies =
represented=20
  included the State Historic Preservation Office (which sponsors the =
Site=20
  Steward program), City of </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Phoenix</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">, City of=20
  </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Scottsdale</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">,=20
  </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Maricopa</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">=20
  </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">County</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">, Bureau=20
  of Land Management, </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tonto</SPAN></FONT><FONT =

face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">National =
Forest<FONT=20
 face=3DArial size=3D2>, and the=20
 Kofa National Wildlife Refuge outside of <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yuma.
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think the atmosphere =
was very=20
 different from the meeting that was held a year ago. I believe this is =
due to=20
 the fact that the land managers recognize that most Geocachers want to =

  practice our recreation in a responsible fashion, and that we have =
done and=20
  continue to do what we can as a "virtual community" to educate others =
in what=20
  our responsibilities are. I would go so far as to say that every land=20
  management representative in attendance recognizes the positives in an =

activity such as Geocaching, and they are willing to support it =
insofar as it=20
 doesn't conflict with the regulations of their respective agencies =
(and we=20
 have to remember that every paid land management representative at =
that=20
 meeting gets their pay from some government agency or=20
other).
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I've preached this =
before here,=20
 but it was said repeatedly last night: The best thing we can do to =
prevent=20
 problems is to obtain permission before placing a cache. That's not =
always the=20
 easiest thing in the world to do, and everyone in attendance =
recognized that.=20
 The issues range from trying to figure out which agency is responsible =
for the=20
 area where you want to place the cache, to finding our what that =
agency's=20
 rules are, to finding someone who actually knows what you're talking =
about and=20
 can help you. But it's worth the effort.
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Everyone also seems to =
be aware=20
 that not every Geocacher in <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Arizona<FONT=20
 face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
 subscribes to this mailing list, or is even aware that =
azgeocaching.com=20
 exists, and that people, particularly newcomers, may go off more in =
ignorance=20
 than anything else and do something that they shouldn't. I think it is =
up to=20
 us to do what we can to let new cachers know about resources such as =
this=20
 mailing list and web site. Brian stated that he would be updating the =
links on=20
 the web site to reflect some of the new Geocaching policies we have =
received=20
 (and I'll get you the BLM policy tomorrow, Brian). And we hope to be =
able to=20
 put together a starter list of permission contacts for those agencies =
where we=20
 have them.
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This seems like a good =
time to=20
 remind everyone of what we came up with after last year's meeting, =
which got=20
 dubbed "Geo-mentoring". If you own a cache, and get a log entry from =
someone=20
 who is relatively new (based on their find count), why not drop them a =
note=20
 welcoming them to Geocaching and letting them know about =
azgeocaching.com and=20
 the listserv? If anyone would like a copy of the boilerplate I use for =
this,=20
 drop me an email.
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Random notes: The =
Phoenix Preserve=20
 sounds as though they are going to be enforcing their "no off-trail" =
policy=20
 more strictly. I don't have my copy of the policy with me here, but =
everyone=20
 who attended got a copy, so I hope someone will post it in short=20
 order.
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tonto<FONT =

face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">National =
Forest<FONT=20
 face=3DArial size=3D2> continues=20
 to welcome Geocaching, except in designated wilderness areas and =
anywhere that=20
 would threaten an archaeological site. It is for the latter reason =
that they=20
 "suggest but do not require" that you contact the appropriate District =
Office=20
 before you place a cache within Tonto.
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">One item that saddened =
me a little=20
 was that <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Maricopa<FONT=20
 face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">County<FONT=20
 face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Parks<FONT =

face=3DArial size=3D2> and=20
 Recreation announced that they are going to be updating their =
Geocaching=20
 policy and eliminate the "two-mile rule". But since they want =
permission from=20
 the Park Supervisor for any caches placed within their parks, I think =
it might=20
 still be possible to work with them if you have a good location that's =
far=20
 enough back from the trailhead and not too far (whatever that means) =
off the=20
 trail. It was nice to hear that the Pet Posse are working with the =
county=20
 staff to see if they might be able to implement a reduced =
"geocaching-only=20
 entrance fee". 
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Kofa NWR has some =
concerns about=20
 some specific caches already placed within the Refuge, but Susana =
Henry, the=20
 representative from Kofa, told me she would look into them =
individually=20
 herself. Again, she does not appear to be opposed to caches within the =
Refuge,=20
 so I would advise anyone planning on placing a cache down there to =
contact her=20
 at the refuge first.
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The question was raised =
about=20
 obtaining land management permission for virtual caches (the question =
of=20
 whether we can obtain permission for virtual caches from The Powers =
What Am at=20
 geoaching.com is a separate issue and irrelevant to this discussion). =
There=20
 are several perspectives on this from the land management side, but my =
sense=20
 of the consensus was that if the virtual is located in a maintained =
public=20
 place that permission would not be necessary, but if the site is off =
trail or=20
 similar than permission should be requested (although personally I =
still=20
 wouldn't attempt to place a virtual at the Deer Valley Rock Art =
Center).=20
 
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Finally, we decided to =
try=20
 something new when we next have a meeting such as this. Since the next =
best=20
 thing we can do (other than getting permission for caches) is to =
spread the=20
 gospel of Responsible Geocaching and educate new cachers, we are going =
to set=20
 up the next meeting as an event cache, and actively seek newer =
Geocachers as=20
 attendees. We will have a lot of details to work out over the next =
several=20
 months, from content to whether we will need to limit attendance, but =
as it=20
 comes together I'll keep you posted. Don't be surprised if it's a year =
off,=20
 though.
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">What pleases me most =
about the=20
 above idea (which came from Mary Estes) is that it seems to indicate =
that most=20
 land managers no longer see Geocaching as merely a threat against the =
lands=20
 they manage (a sardonic "thanks again" to Christina Leonard of the =
"Republic"=20
 for originally provoking that attitude), but rather as an activity =
that with=20
 some exceptions does have a beneficial place on public=20
lands.
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My heartfelt thanks to =
everyone=20
 who attended, cachers and land managers alike.
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Steve
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Team Tierra=20
 Buena</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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