[Az-Geocaching] Just wondering, please no fighting
Andrew Ayre
listserv@azgeocaching.com
Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:47:48 -0700
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MessageBill,
Questions, checkboxes, etc. thats what I meant by guided format, so there is
consistancy.
I would volunteer to implement such a "text generation" system, however I
think that geocaching.com is the best place to do it if it is to be included
in enough caches (Arizona or otherwise) to make it worthwhile. If a high
enough percentage of Arizona cache hiders (past and present) read this list
and all put some effort in, then maybe it could work for Arizona without
geocaching.com.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com]On Behalf Of Bill
Tomlinson
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 9:33 AM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Just wondering, please no fighting
You've both made some very good points and sparked a couple of thoughts.
Although I don't fall into the "handicapped" category your discussing, I'd
like to throw in some ideas. I tend to take a broader view of the world.
First, I like that you mentioned the word "limitations". I was going to
propose that. When we say "handicapped", most people think of a small range
of physical limitations. As you pointed out, there is really a huge range.
Beyond that, though, I would even propose we include non-physical
limitations. I know people that are paralyzingly afraid of heights. We've
all seen rest areas and scenic lookouts that are paved and completely flat.
A person in a wheel chair might easily be able to get a cache there if
placed well, but a person afraid of heights might not go anywhere near the
edge. There are lots of other limitations, but you get the idea.
My second thought is on the use of text. I think that any way it is done
would require some dependence on the hider. We probably wouldn't get the
consistency needed to do any worthwhile searching. Besides, if it's too
much work, people just won't do it. I'm wondering if we could do something
like the travel sites do for hotels. Just lots of check boxes. Does it
have a pool? A restaurant? Wheelchair accessible? I'm sure we could come
up with a decent set of questions that would not be too imposing on the
cache owner, but would still be useful to the finder. Then, it would be a
simple matter to perform searches based on those well defined attributes.
OK, I just had a third thought. Perhaps if getting anything done at
geocaching.com is too difficult, maybe we could have an independent Arizona
engine with these attributes. It would be more effort for the owners and
would make searching slightly more difficult, but I bet many of us would
gladly use it. That might even give geocaching.com the kick in the rear
needed to make some changes. Especially if they know we members are
questioning the value we receive for what we're paying.
So, just a bunch of jumbled thoughts. I think if we had someone
spearheading the effort, more would join in.
CacheLess
Bill Tomlinson
-----Original Message-----
From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
Ayre
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 8:31 AM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Just wondering, please no fighting
Well its quite simple really. The current system (1 star) is IMO
inadequate because is relies on the hider knowing what "handicap accessible"
really means, and lets face it - most people don't have a clue. If you go to
the clayjar cache rating sysem thingmyjig, it describes 1 star as being
wheelchair accessible. This is a perfect example IMO of someone writing an
attempt at a handicap description and not having a clue. People in
wheelchairs can often go further and longer than someone on crutches. IMO
its a crude attempt at finding the "lowest common denominator".
So rather than that, I think hiders should use some kind of guided
questions or format to create an accurate textual (not stars!) description
of surface type, inclines, height of cache off ground, whether you have to
reach into a bush to find it, flat or inclined parking, etc. Armed with this
information handicapped people can make up their own minds whether they can
do it with their particular set of disabilities, and hiders don't have to
try and take into account what little they often know about a massive range
of different limitations that fall under the broad description of
"handicapped".
This information is obviously a spoiler for everyone else and could give
away the hiding location in most instances. So this description needs to be
encrypted like the hints or require clicking on a seperate link to view it,
so non-handicapped people can ignore it.
Finally, it should be possible to search based on this description or
view just this description of all the nearest caches on a summary page, so
handicapped people can quickly scan through the list, read and find the ones
they can do - similar to what most of us probably do right now with the
stars to some degree.
Pros: allows handicapped people to quickly identify which caches they
can do and be included more in the fun of geocaching
Cons: takes away some of the fun of finding the cache because the
description will likely give away the location.
This is the best I can come up with. I'll be adding something like this
to the caches I've hidden when I get time.
Background: my wife is handicapped and often requires the use of
crutches and a wheelchair. I have found it very tough to work out which
caches we can do together and so far its been mostly urban ones. Its very
dissapointing to get out in the backcountry to find a cache that should be
ok for her on paper and on topo maps (I use the 3D function, profile
function and distance measuring in Terrain Naviagator to try to assess the
terrain) and find that she cannot do it.
If anyone has a better idea, I would love to hear it. Suggesting similar
things to the above idea on the forums at geocaching.com has been a waste of
time based on the responses it gets. IMO geocaching.com falls completely
short of attempting to include handicapped people and I don't think it would
require much effort to implement something (anything!) better.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com]On Behalf Of gale and
mike
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 4:29 PM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: [Az-Geocaching] Just wondering, please no fighting
[Snipped]
For Andy/Groover/TeamSpike:
As a person with physical limitations (for those of you who have seen
me, I hide them quite well), I appreciate the difficulties in assessing
handicap accessibility on cache pages. If you've posted ideas about this in
the past with geocaching.com, how about posting them here so that all future
cache hiders will have an idea of what would help the many handicapped
geocachers in this state. One thing I like is a good description in the
cache page (ie road requires high clearance vehicle, rock scrambling
required, fairly level terrain). I can more readily determine if I can
physically attempt the cache that way than just by sticking the handicap
symbol on the easiest terrain caches. Perhaps we can compile a list of
handicapped accessible caches and have azgeocaching.com note on their
website who to contact for an updated list. I wouldn't mind being the
contact (on another e-mail address).
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D817104517-11042003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Bill,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D817104517-11042003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D817104517-11042003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Questions, checkboxes, etc. thats what I meant by guided =
format, so there=20
is consistancy.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D817104517-11042003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D817104517-11042003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
would volunteer to implement such a "text generation" system, however I =
think=20
that geocaching.com is the best place to do it if it is to be =
included in=20
enough caches (Arizona or otherwise) to make it worthwhile. If a =
high=20
enough percentage of Arizona cache hiders (past and present) read =
this list=20
and all put some effort in, then maybe it could work for Arizona without =
geocaching.com.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Andy<BR><BR> </FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com=20
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com]<B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Bill=20
Tomlinson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 11, 2003 9:33 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
listserv@azgeocaching.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Az-Geocaching] Just=20
wondering, please no fighting<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>You've both made some very good points and sparked a couple =
of=20
thoughts. Although I don't fall into the "handicapped" category =
your=20
discussing, I'd like to throw in some ideas. I tend to take a =
broader=20
view of the world. First, I like that you mentioned the word=20
"limitations". I was going to propose that. When we say=20
"handicapped", most people think of a small range of physical=20
limitations. As you pointed out, there is really a huge=20
range.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2> Beyond that, though, I would even =
propose we=20
include non-physical limitations. I know people that are =
paralyzingly=20
afraid of heights. We've all seen rest areas and scenic lookouts =
that=20
are paved and completely flat. A person in a wheel chair might =
easily be=20
able to get a cache there if placed well, but a person afraid of =
heights might=20
not go anywhere near the edge. There are lots of other =
limitations, but=20
you get the idea.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>My=20
second thought is on the use of text. I think that any way it is =
done=20
would require some dependence on the hider. We probably wouldn't =
get the=20
consistency needed to do any worthwhile searching. Besides, if =
it's too=20
much work, people just won't do it. I'm wondering if we could do =
something like the travel sites do for hotels. Just lots of =
check=20
boxes. Does it have a pool? A restaurant? Wheelchair =
accessible? I'm sure we could come up with a decent set of =
questions=20
that would not be too imposing on the cache owner, but would still be =
useful=20
to the finder. Then, it would be a simple matter to perform =
searches=20
based on those well defined attributes.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>OK,=20
I just had a third thought. Perhaps if getting anything done at=20
geocaching.com is too difficult, maybe we could have an=20
independent Arizona engine with these attributes. It would =
be more=20
effort for the owners and would make searching slightly more =
difficult, but I=20
bet many of us would gladly use it. That might even give =
geocaching.com=20
the kick in the rear needed to make some changes. Especially if =
they=20
know we members are questioning the value we receive for what we're=20
paying.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>So,=20
just a bunch of jumbled thoughts. I think if we had someone =
spearheading=20
the effort, more would join in.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>CacheLess</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D894461116-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Bill=20
Tomlinson</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com=20
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com] <B>On Behalf =
Of=20
</B>Andrew Ayre<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 11, 2003 8:31 =
AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
listserv@azgeocaching.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Az-Geocaching] =
Just=20
wondering, please no fighting<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003>Well its quite simple really. The current =
system (1=20
star) is IMO inadequate because is relies on the hider knowing what=20
"handicap accessible" really means, and lets face it - most people =
don't=20
have a clue. If you go to the clayjar cache rating sysem thingmyjig, =
it=20
describes 1 star as being wheelchair accessible. This is a perfect =
example=20
IMO of someone writing an attempt at a handicap description and =
not=20
having a clue. People in wheelchairs can often go further and longer =
than=20
someone on crutches. IMO its a crude attempt at finding the "lowest =
common=20
denominator".</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D731321415-11042003>So=20
rather than that, I think hiders should use some kind of guided =
questions or=20
format to create an accurate textual (not stars!) description of =
surface=20
type, inclines, height of cache off ground, whether you have to =
reach into a=20
bush to find it, flat or inclined parking, etc. Armed with this =
information=20
handicapped people can make up their own minds whether they can do =
it with=20
their particular set of disabilities, and hiders don't have to try =
and take=20
into account what little they often know about a massive range of =
different=20
limitations that fall under the broad description of=20
"handicapped".</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003>This information is obviously a spoiler =
for=20
everyone else and could give away the hiding location in most =
instances. So=20
this description needs to be encrypted like the hints or require =
clicking on=20
a seperate link to view it, so non-handicapped people can ignore=20
it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003>Finally, it should be possible to search =
based on=20
this description or view just this description of all the nearest =
caches on=20
a summary page, so handicapped people can quickly scan through the =
list,=20
read and find the ones they can do - similar to what most of us =
probably do=20
right now with the stars to some degree.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003>Pros: allows handicapped people to =
quickly identify=20
which caches they can do and be included more in the fun of=20
geocaching</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003>Cons: takes away some of the fun of =
finding the=20
cache because the description will likely give away the=20
location.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003>This is the best I can come up with. I'll =
be adding=20
something like this to the caches I've hidden when I get=20
time.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D731321415-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Background: my wife is handicapped and often requires the =
use of=20
crutches and a wheelchair. I have found it very tough to work out =
which=20
caches we can do together and so far its been mostly urban ones. Its =
very=20
dissapointing to get out in the backcountry to find a cache that =
should be=20
ok for her on paper and on topo maps (I use the 3D function, profile =
function and distance measuring in Terrain Naviagator to try to =
assess the=20
terrain) and find that she cannot do it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D731321415-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D731321415-11042003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>If=20
anyone has a better idea, I would love to hear it. Suggesting =
similar things=20
to the above idea on the forums at geocaching.com has been a waste =
of time=20
based on the responses it gets. IMO geocaching.com falls =
completely=20
short of attempting to include handicapped people and I don't think =
it would=20
require much effort to implement something (anything!)=20
better.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Andy<BR><BR> </FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com=20
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com]<B>On Behalf =
Of=20
</B>gale and mike<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 10, 2003 4:29=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> listserv@azgeocaching.com<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
[Az-Geocaching] Just wondering, please no =
fighting<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D731321415-11042003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>[Snipped]</FONT></SPAN></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in =
0pt"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">For=20
Andy/Groover/TeamSpike:</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">As a person =
with physical=20
limitations (for those of you who have seen me, I hide them quite =
well), I=20
appreciate the difficulties in assessing handicap accessibility on =
cache=20
pages. If you’ve posted ideas about this in the past with =
geocaching.com,=20
how about posting them here so that all future cache hiders will =
have an=20
idea of what would help the many handicapped geocachers in this =
state. One=20
thing I like is a good description in the cache page (ie road =
requires=20
high clearance vehicle, rock scrambling required, fairly level =
terrain). I=20
can more readily determine if I can physically attempt the cache =
that way=20
than just by sticking the handicap symbol on the easiest terrain =
caches.=20
Perhaps we can compile a list of handicapped accessible caches and =
have=20
azgeocaching.com note on their website who to contact for an =
updated list.=20
I wouldn’t mind being the contact (on another e-mail=20
=
address).</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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